July 9, 2026

When Futbol Got Political

When Futbol Got Political
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"Keep politics out of sports", is something heard very often, especially right now as the world cup is taking place. These two, especially futbol and politics, have never really been seperate and to show that, Cristina tells Carmen about two of the most political football matches in history. Argentina vs Peru during the 1978 World Cup, hosted in Argentina during the dictatorship, in which at least 30,000 were disappeared. As well as Chile vs the Soviet Union in 1974, the second leg was set to take place in el Estadio Nacional, which had been converted to a concentration camp during the dictatorship. The Soviet Union asked for a venue change, as it was already known that prisoners were being held captive there.

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Sources

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_FIFA_World_Cup
Smith, B. L. (2002). The Argentinian Junta and the Press in the Run-up to the 1978 World Cup. Soccer & Society, 3(1), 69–78.
https://doi.org/10.1080/714004869
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/06/argentina.usa
https://www.theguardian.com/football/in-bed-with-maradona/2017/jul/05/1978-world-cup-argentina-political-protest-goalposts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA%E2%80%93CONMEBOL_play-off)
https://www.marca.com/2013/11/21/futbol/futbol_internacional/chile/1385026960.html
https://www.bbc.com/mundo/deportes-40301910
https://pca.st/hg41k09e


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WEBVTT

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Hi everyone. This is Carmen and Christina and this is

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Esia Unknown, a podcast where we're talking about Latin American history.

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Sometimes it's horrible, dealing with topics like racism, corruption, and genocide.

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But more than that, it's also about resistance, power and community.

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But today today it's about the most beautiful game football. Oh,

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the people's game. The people's game. Yeah, the People's game.

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I'm going to title this keep Politics out of Football.

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And with that, let's just get into it. Let's do it, Okay,

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keep politics out of sports. Shut up and dribble, keep

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football politics free. Since the World Cup started, and like

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every single sports ever, we hear all the sports. Yeah,

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all the sports. We hear a variation of those like

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three things that I just said again and again. But

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these two things, politics and sports, they can't be separated.

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They have never been separate. They go together, especially when

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it comes to the World Cup. Yeah, the World Cup

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has taken place during dictatorships, legitimizing these violent governments. And

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there's a term for this. It's called sports watching, a

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term used to describe the practice of governments, individuals, or

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other groups to use the sport as a means to

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improve the reputation by distracting or diverting attention away from

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activities considered by others as controversial or unethical, a form

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of propaganda, if you will. Yeah, sports watching can be

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accomplished through hosting sporting events like the World Cup or

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the Olympics, purchasing or sponsoring sporting teams, or participating in

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a sport. And yeah, all those things, especially applied to

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the World Cup, not to mention the official recognition of

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certain teams who gets to play and who doesn't, Yeah,

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such as Israel who gets to play while other teams

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don't get recognized as existing. Wait were they part of

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the World Cup? No? Right, they were part of the

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qualifiers for the World Cup, but they fucking suck so

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they didn't qualify. Okay, Actually there's clips of Holland early

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in Holland, just during the Israel versus Norway game that

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disqualified them, where they get their ass kicked, just him

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in the game. There's like highlights of it that are

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fun to watch. And he also donated, they say he

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or like Norway's team donated. Oh actually I heard of that. Yeah,

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funds from that game to Palestinian children. But yeah, I

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mean like inherently political. Yeah, and that's like without even

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getting into FIFA ignoring like women. Oh right, I mean,

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do you find is there a women's team in FIFA?

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No?

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No, no, there is now. But like the first Women's

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World Cup, when was that nineteen seventy and then nineteen

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seventy one in Mexico? Was that a second and they

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just completely like ignored it and called it like unofficial.

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So there's actually a really good documentary called that follows

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the women's teams in this World Cup that that happened

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in Mexico City, in which the Mexico came in second.

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I want to say, ooh, listen, the Mexican women's national team.

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They're good. It's like us saying where the women's team

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is better than the men's team. Yeah, yeah, m hm,

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at least i've heard. I don't keep up with US soccer.

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Oh yeah, I know the US women's national team they've

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won like five times. Yeah, they're really good. Right, I'm

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sure I've heard that. Yeah. And all over the world

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football is considered the most accessible sport, the people's game.

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Like you said, every World Cup we see underdog stories

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like in this World Cup with Vere or I t

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even my heart left with Have you seen those memes? Yeah,

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of like where's Mexico and then like you point to

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the map and it's like where's and you point to

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your heart. Yeah I have Yeah, that was yeah, that

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was that was us. Actually I saw a TikTok of

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a little kid crying when they were disqualified and or

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it made me cry. I've been getting tiktoks of kids

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like sending messages to Mexican players, like there's one kid

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who's like, I don't know, maybe seven, and he's crying

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and he's like, can you tried your best? Oh? I

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haven't seen though. Every time I see I can't rehabit anyone. Yeah. Anyway,

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point is the People's Game is where we were at?

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Yes Underton, Yes, yes, And because we are recording this

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just a few days after Mexico's elimination, inturn crime so out.

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Although every four years, you know, it's like I get

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my hopes up this year more than others. Not gonna lie. Yeah,

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this team was good.

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This team anyway, we thought, why not do an episode

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on a couple of the most political matches that have

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to do with Latin America.

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And shout out to you for introducing me to bibliote Caiando, Yes,

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where they he did a two part series with the

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top ten most political matches like in the world, fascinating

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episodes and yeah, well we got the idea, so thank you,

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thank you. And so this brings me to the nineteen

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seventy eight World Cup, hosted just two years after the

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overthrow of President Isabel Peron, which we do have a

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couple of episodes on, specifically about Las Madres, la plasade Mayo,

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not the coup itself. That's maybe one day future topic. Yeah,

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so I should add when Argentina was chosen to be

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a host nation in nineteen sixty six, there was no coup,

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no military junta, and Juan Domingo Peron was still president

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of Argentina. And in fact, his signature gesture inspired the

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logo for the nineteen seventy eight World Cup. And I

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put pictures on the documents that you could see and

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we'll post these pictures. I'll mature to post them, or

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we will make a video world We'll show you one

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of the two. Sure, but Beroon was known to put

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his arms up by his head during speeches, and that

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is the logo for a World Cup in Argentina and

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the military junta tried to get this changed. They didn't

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like that this was done because of Beroon. But when

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they tried to get a change, it was way too late,

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like the merch was all made. It was too late,

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but they tried. And I will keep the context short.

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One day we will do an actual series on, you know,

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the coup and the war in Argentina, the dirty war.

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So Isabel Peron became president after her husband Juan Peron

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died of natural causes, and there was already growing instability

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in the country for a very very long time, leading

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to the coup, which took place on the twenty fourth

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of March nineteen seventy six. Just before one am, Isabel

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Peron was detained and taken by helicopter to Residentia el Messidor,

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a small French star castle in Biya, la Angostura and

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the Necan Province of Argentina. There, Major General Jose Rojelal announced,

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Madame President, the armed forces have decided to take political

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control of the country and you are hereby dismissed and arrested. Damn. Yeah.

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Then at three ten in the morning, the military junta

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gave their first official broadcast quote. People are advised that,

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as of today, the country is under the operational control

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of the General Commanders Junta of the Armed Forces. We

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recommend to all inhabitants strict compliance with the provisions and

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directives emanating from the military, security or police authorities, and

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to be extremely careful to avoid individual or group actions

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and attitudes that may require drastic intervention from the operating personnel.

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Signed General Jrge Rafael Videla, Admiral Emilio Eduardo Massa and

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Brigadier Orlando Ramon Agosti, and a state of exception and

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martial law was put in place. Five days later, on

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March twenty ninth, General Jorge ra Fer Videla was named

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the president of the military Junta and then the dirty war,

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as it would be called by them, ensued. And they

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they called it a dirty war, but it was like

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really more decapturing, torturing, disappearing of subjugation of people who

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opposed the hunta and anyone that was labeled as a

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service left dispressive. Yeah, and at least thirty thousand were

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disappeared or killed in this in this less than ten

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year period. That is how many people were disappeared or

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killed at least thirty thousand, if not pregnant women who

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were disappeared had their babies taken, like we talked about

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in our episode where we talked with the author of

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A Flower Traveled in My Blood and in our episode

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about as Susinavia Floor. So yeah, people were tortured, killed, disappeared,

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babies were taken, redistributed really as if they were like

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just like into military families. Yes, exactly. As the disappeared

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grew and the human rights violations by the junta also grew,

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Henry Kissinger privately assured the junta that they had the

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full support of the US government in their war. Material

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obtained by the Washington National Security Archive under the Freedom

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of Information Act revealed conversations from a meeting on October seventh,

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nineteen seventy six, in which Henry Kissinger said, quote, Look,

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our basic attitude is that we would like you to succeed,

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as in succeed in their dirty war and their disappearing

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of all these people. Kissinger or was reported as saying, quote,

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I have an old fashioned view that friends ought to

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be supported. What is not understood in the United States

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is that you have a civil war. We read about

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human rights problems, but not the context. The quicker you succeed,

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the better. The human rights problem is a growing one.

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We want a stable situation. We won't cause you unnecessary difficulties.

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If you can finish before Congress gets back, the better.

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Whatever freedoms you could restore. What help ridiculous? Absolutely ridiculous. Yeah,

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like no, what else can you expect from Henry Kissinger? Right,

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And that's the basic context of this nineteen seventy eight

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World Cup. The military kunta was using this tournament as

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an opportunity for nationalistic propaganda and to legitimize its dictatorship. Meanwhile,

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Las Madres, la Plasa de Mayo, the Mothers of the disappeared,

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We're using the World Cup to ask for help. As

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crowds gather in the stadium and journal as were arriving,

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Las Madras could be seen every Thursday, they met and

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they were walking circles in the in the plaza, and

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they were able to speak with journalists who were encouraged

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by like human rights groups outside of Argentina to talk

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to them. And so like we've we've already posted one

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video where I show at the end of interview of

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one of those interviews and it's it's it's heartbreaking. Yeah.

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And Argentina did go on to win this World Cup,

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but it was a it was like it was a

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sting to win. It was like it was this account.

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There were there were claims of alleged match fixing and interference.

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Mm hmm hmmm, something some would say continues today. Yeah.

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Two years into the coup, everyone in Argentina knew someone

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who had been disappeared, someone who was missing. The team's

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manager says that Luis Menotti told the team not to

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win for the Junta, but to win for the metal workers,

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the butchers, the bakers, and the taxi drivers who filled

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the stadium. I remember seeing an interview with one of

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the mothers of the Basa de Mayo, who you know,

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her husband would watch the games and she would be like,

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how can anyone be celebrating when my child is missing,

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when we don't know where these people are. And so

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the contrast of that is striking. Yeah. Another thing of

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note during this World Cup is that during the matches,

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the goalpost had a black band around them. I put

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a picture in our doc, cool doc, Okay, I see it. Yeah,

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And so the ground staff apparently put them there as

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a form of remembrance for the disappeared, and when asked

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about it, they said, like, this isn't a protest, this

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is in remembrance of the disappeared. And they had discussed

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like what they could do to bring awareness themselves, Like

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the mothers are out there, they're bringing awareness. What can

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we as a ground staff who maintain this field, Like,

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what can we do? And they discussed cutting a message

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across the grass, painting a message somewhere cameras could see it,

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asking players themselves to wear a black armband when playing

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to mourn the disappeared. But as they like talked, all

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those ideas while the military hunta is you know out

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there being the military junta, all those ideas seemed dangerous.

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I could see that, because that would be easier to

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target someone, or it's a more blatant display of yeah, disagreement.

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They wanted to show that they were they were thinking

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of the disappeared, but they didn't want to become disappeared

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themselves while doing it right right. Difficult thing to balance there, exactly.

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So they ended up putting the black armbands on the goalposts.

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And when the generals of the junta asked like, what

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are these why are they here? What is this the ground?

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Steff was like, Oh, that's just tradition, Like what do

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00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:17.000
you know about the people's sport. We always do this

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00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:20.879
exactly exactly, and they left them there every game. If

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00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.279
you look up highlights of this World Cup, you will

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00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:27.000
see the armbands. Wow, I just I just saw them.

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I was just looking at highlights of that World Cup

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and something else. That's just I don't know, horrible to

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00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:36.720
know what's happening. Just a mile from where the World

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00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:42.240
Cup final was being played, the ESMA, the Esla mechanical

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00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:50.519
was operating, and this became was used as a Clandesign

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00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:55.639
detention center. Because that was the thing about this military junta.

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You know, every dictatorship just seems a little bit different.

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00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:02.559
This military junta put a lot of the kindescand detention

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00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:06.759
centers in places where people like walked by every day,

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00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:09.480
so they were like hidden, but not hidden. They looked

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00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:13.039
ordinary from the outside, uh huh, but inside it was

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00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:15.799
like horrible things were happening and everyone knew what they were.

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And Thesma was one of these, and it was one

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of the worst detention centers. Around five thousand disappeared detainees

235
00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:28.759
passed through there. There were instances of torture, slave labor,

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the kidnapping, abduction of babies born in captivity happening, the

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preparation of death flights, which I don't know if we've

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I haven't said what they were in this episode, but

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she led their deathlights to when we talked about what

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these death flights were. But that's how they disappeared people.

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00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:51.840
We talked about it in the SUSINAI Ya Florid pisode

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because that's how she was disappeared. Yeah, we thing we

243
00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:58.519
probably talked about it in the episode about the Book

244
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:03.080
of Flower. This is how they disappeared. So many people

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00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.200
that will, like sadly, never be found because they would

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00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.839
fly over see the sea and the river and throw

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00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:15.400
them down there. Just from yeah, I know Chile used helicopters.

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00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.160
I don't remember about Argentina. It was a specific kind

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00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.240
of plane, okay. And so the preparation of these death

250
00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:24.839
flights happened at Asma as well, and oh yeah, I

251
00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:27.839
wrote it down here. Victims were detained in these centers

252
00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.400
like Smad, drugged and then thrown alive into the sea

253
00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:32.839
or the Rio de la all you have to do

254
00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:35.400
is keep reading. Yeah, I had to do. I keep

255
00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:39.960
And there's actual testimony from survivors of these kindest detention

256
00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:44.200
centers that said they could hear the cheers of every

257
00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:50.680
goal from where they were at. I can't imagine being detained,

258
00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:58.359
being tortured, deprived of rights, probably not being fed, and

259
00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:10.279
hearing people out there right horrifying. Yeah, and now onto

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00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:13.799
the most political game of this World Cup, aside from

261
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:18.599
the entire World Cup, of course happening, but Argentina versus Peru.

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Sixteen teams qualified for this World Cup. They were divided

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into four groups of four. It's not done how it

264
00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:32.319
is today. So these sixteen teams divided into four groups

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00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:36.400
of four. These four in each group play against each

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00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:40.680
other round robin style. Everyone gets a turn against the other.

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00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:45.359
There's two points for a win, one for a draw,

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00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.000
and then goal difference. That's how the points get awarded

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to separate like who's first, who's second, who's third, who's fourth.

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00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.240
The top two of each group were then advanced to

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a second round, where then they split into two groups

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00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:05.599
of four, and then the winners of each group played

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00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:09.160
each other in the final, and then second place for

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00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:14.839
second place teams for third place. Oh, so in the

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00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:19.880
first round of group games, Brazil beat Betu three to zero,

276
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:24.839
while Argentina beat Poland to zero. Brazil and Argentina then

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00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:29.640
played out a tense and violent goalless draw, so zero

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00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:35.279
zero or neil mill as I say, both teams went

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00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:39.440
into the last round of matches with three points, and

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00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:43.079
so normally the following games take place at the same time,

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00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:47.559
so that in this case Argentina they wouldn't know by

282
00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:54.240
how much they needed to win. But when Brazil wanted

283
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.920
this to be changed, like change the time, FIFA sided

284
00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.880
with Argentina and they didn't change the time of the games,

285
00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:04.839
so they didn't happen at the same time. No, Argentina

286
00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:08.240
managed to delay the kickoff of its last match to

287
00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:13.119
await the result of the Brazil and Poland encounter, and

288
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:17.000
so Brazil won three to one, and this meant Argentina

289
00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:21.400
had to be better by four at least four goals

290
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.000
to reach the final. And it's like normally both would

291
00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:28.920
be playing. Argentina would have no idea what happened in

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00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:32.839
the Brazil Poland game, but because Arethina I was cheating,

293
00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:36.400
they were able to delay until they learned the score

294
00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:42.839
of Brazil, and so this delay, this successful delay began.

295
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:47.640
The FIFA heavily favorites Argentena. Rumors that still happened today,

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00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:52.799
and so bet U versus Argentina, the winner out of

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00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:55.680
these two would go on to the finals to face

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00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:00.240
the Netherlands. And if you hear that today, you just

299
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.400
like assumed Petu would have lost right away, because like

300
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.400
it's Peru. When have they ever? They haven't. They didn't

301
00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:09.440
make it to the World Cup, No, and I think

302
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.079
this might be the only time they did. But Betu

303
00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:18.119
back then was amazing. They had a man named Thelfilio Kubias,

304
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:23.200
an Afro Peruvian known as El Nene, who is considered

305
00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.759
Pu's greatest player to have ever existed, and he is

306
00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:31.319
one of the best from South America. Wow. And so

307
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:35.240
in the first round, in the first group round, Betu

308
00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:39.079
beat the Netherlands. And the Netherlands are now in the final,

309
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:41.160
like they're for sure in the final, and so Betu

310
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:45.920
had already beat that once. But all this to emphasize,

311
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:49.759
but it was good. They defeated Scotland three to one.

312
00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:54.400
They tied zero zero with the Netherlands. They defeated Iran

313
00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:57.559
four to one. In Group B, they did lose to

314
00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:00.559
Brazil zero to three, but then they went they won

315
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.319
two zero against Poland and then this is where Athena

316
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:07.240
versus Pedu came along. That was the next game. But

317
00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.680
like all this is show they didn't suck. But in

318
00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:16.559
this game against Argentina, when it was finally going both

319
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:20.480
teams were playing, they Peru they did not look like themselves,

320
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.400
the team that had been playing, that had won won

321
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:26.079
all these matches. They didn't look like that team, like

322
00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:29.680
if it was ragged or they were pressured in some way.

323
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:34.920
Mm hmm. By halftime, Peru was losing two by two,

324
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:37.400
and then eventually by the end of the game at

325
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:43.480
Hintina had scored six goals six to zero. Wow. There's

326
00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:48.559
Peruvian players that have stated that Vivela of the military

327
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:51.640
Junta president of the military Junta visited in the locker

328
00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:56.920
rooms during halftime and said things to them. Others said

329
00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:01.559
that Vivela and Henry Kissinger what went to their locker

330
00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:04.559
room before the game, not during our time, but before

331
00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:07.160
the game, and they read a message from Peru's own

332
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:14.599
dictator and Argentina ally Fantaisico Morales Bermudes allegedly telling them

333
00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:19.480
to throw the game. Wow, And I haven't seen the game, Like,

334
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:21.799
I didn't look up the highlights for this match. I

335
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:24.680
listened to some accounts and there were like so many

336
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:27.880
that people that said that things looked fishy on the field,

337
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:30.559
like I said earlier, but we didn't look like themselves

338
00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:34.720
playing out there. There were instances of Peruvian players ducking

339
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:38.559
when they easily could have, like you know, gotten a header,

340
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.200
stopped the ball in any way or form, and they

341
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:47.720
just didn't. Wow. So that is what people say this

342
00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:51.680
game was like. There's also an alleged bomb that went

343
00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:57.559
off during Aargentina's fourth goal. A bomb A bomb? Yeah,

344
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:01.519
but yeah, they they lost, they lost by that much.

345
00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:06.279
And so Argentina went on to play the Netherlands and

346
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:13.000
they won three to one in extra time. And this

347
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:16.720
match was also not without controversy. The Dutch accused Argentina

348
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:20.160
of stalin to delay the match. They took their sweet

349
00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:21.960
ass time to come out into the field when the

350
00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:25.720
game was already supposed to start. Then on top of that,

351
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:28.839
they wasted more time questioning one of the Dutch players.

352
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:30.759
One of the Dutch players had a cast on his

353
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:33.400
wrists because it was hurt and he had that on

354
00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:34.960
and they were like, is that even legal? Could he

355
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:39.160
even be playing like this? And they claimed the Dutch

356
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:42.039
and the Netherlands claimed that Agentina was doing this to

357
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:48.359
build tension and hostility from the Argentinian crowds crowd And

358
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:53.599
I did watch highlights of this game, and the crowd

359
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:58.880
is so loud during this game. Oh wow, it's chilling,

360
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:02.000
like it can't even like described, like how insanely loud

361
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:05.000
this crowd is, like just like when you hear games

362
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:09.400
at Azteca National games at Statistecca, the crowd there is

363
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:17.839
like unlike crowds and other games. This game Argentina. No,

364
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:22.680
it was insane and so like I would imagine it's

365
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:26.039
intimidating as fuck to be playing against Argentina and Argentina

366
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:29.119
in this game. Uh. And then they delayed the game

367
00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:34.839
like yeah, and so yeah, Argentina one, and like knowing

368
00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:36.960
what we know today about the military junta, but even

369
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:39.720
back then it was already known. Anyway, Yeah, it's chilling

370
00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:43.359
to see Videla presenting the Golden World Cup trophy to

371
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:47.920
Argentina's team captain Danielle Pasarela. Yeah, like like you don't.

372
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:51.799
You don't belong in a stadium presenting trophy. You belong

373
00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:59.839
in prison, You belong at the Hague. Go to the Hague. Yeah,

374
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:05.279
and we'll post that picture too, because it's quite chilling,

375
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:09.960
to say the least. He just looks fucking evil. No,

376
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:15.039
he really does. And so yeah, that was the Agritina

377
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:24.960
World Cup. Now, the next game on our list is

378
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:31.119
Chile versus the Soviet Union, which there's so many terms

379
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:32.880
for this game that I didn't know, and it was

380
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:36.160
just fascinating to know. Oh really, Yeah, the game that

381
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:40.720
wasn't the game that did not happen. Uh, the Ghost game.

382
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:45.000
That's the one I've heard from the Oh my god,

383
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:52.839
can parents? Yeah, the Ghost game. Yeah, Pinochet's Ghost Games specifically.

384
00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:02.680
So yeah, in nineteen seventy three, these were qualifiers for

385
00:27:02.839 --> 00:27:07.880
the nineteen seventy four World Cup in West Germany. And

386
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:10.839
so there were two games, which I guess we're called

387
00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:12.720
the first leg and second leg. I didn't know that

388
00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:15.240
was a thing, but the first and second game to qualify.

389
00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:18.720
And so like you and I and probably our listeners,

390
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:21.640
I think we all hear nineteen seventy three and we

391
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:25.759
know what this means for Chile. Yeah, the overthrow of

392
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:31.160
the democratically elected, which we do have like six episodes on.

393
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:36.200
Sometimes also called the other September eleventh after the US's

394
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.400
own September eleventh took place, but I call it the

395
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:43.160
real September eleventh because it happened first. Yeah. Anyway, September eleventh,

396
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:45.920
nineteen seventy three. And I'm going to keep this context

397
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:49.039
short because again we have six, six episodes on six. Yeah,

398
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:51.759
if you want context behind this, go listen to our series,

399
00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:55.559
which is more than enough context. Really, it's six episodes

400
00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:00.119
a lot, and there's still more that we could have done. Yeah. Anyway,

401
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:05.599
the Chilean military enacted the overthrow of sale. A lot

402
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:08.799
went into this, millions upon millions millions spent by the

403
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:14.799
US to assist in this coup, to discredit Agenda so much.

404
00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:19.839
Almost immediately once the coup took place, leftists and anyone

405
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.759
considered a versive was rounded up. They were put into

406
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:27.640
regular places that people walked by every day. Uh, and

407
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:32.359
those became concentration camps and torture centers, including Elestadio National

408
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:37.359
in Santiago, Chile, and like I don't know about right

409
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:42.599
now because they have now elected like another right wing president.

410
00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:45.680
But you know, before you could go and see the

411
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:48.519
section a section of the stadium that people are not

412
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:50.960
allowed to sit in, and it says like, you know,

413
00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:56.759
preserves for the historical memory or collective memory whatever the cols. Yes, exactly, exactly,

414
00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:01.000
but yeah, at one point there were seven thousand persons there.

415
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:06.720
And on the day of the coup, Chile's national team

416
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:10.000
had arrived from practice. They were having like special type

417
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:14.880
of intense practice to prepare for qualifications and for playing

418
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:18.519
all these international matches. But when they arrived, there was

419
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:23.839
no training because the military junta had prohibited all Chilean's

420
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.319
from leaving the country and there were no exceptions for

421
00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:31.319
the national team. On top of that, there were players

422
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:37.519
with dads who were close to Allende. But the team's

423
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:40.839
doctor who was also the personal doctor of the Air

424
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:45.559
Force general. And I know we said it in the

425
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:49.759
all our six episodes, but the military hunta first, those

426
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:54.720
in charge were the generals of each branch. So the

427
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:58.960
personal doctor of the Air Force general was also the

428
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:03.200
team's doctor, and so he convinced the junta to let

429
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:07.160
the team travel this doctor specifically stating that it would

430
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:12.160
normalize the junta sports washing. Mm hmm, he said, quote

431
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:14.880
it could help the country's international image in giving a

432
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:19.559
sense of normalcy end quote. And the junta agreed, but

433
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:22.799
only on the condition that no one made any political

434
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.519
statements whatsoever, and to ensure that the players listened. The

435
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:29.599
family members of the players were placed under military surveillance,

436
00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:33.480
the ones that needed it, some of them supported I'm

437
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:39.079
assuming yeah. To further complicate this, Chile's next opponent on

438
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:42.759
the road to qualifying for the World Cup was the

439
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:48.480
Soviet Union, and the first leg of these two matches

440
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:50.559
that would happen. The first leg was said to take

441
00:30:50.599 --> 00:30:57.599
place in Moscow, in the heart of enemy territory, because Chile,

442
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:02.039
you know, they considered anything immunis the enemy, and as

443
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:08.559
we all know, the USSR was communists. So the match

444
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:11.720
was to take place September twenty six, fifteen days after

445
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:16.839
the coup. The Soviet Union was allied with the overthrown government,

446
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:21.680
and they had condemned the coup, as anyone should have done.

447
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:24.519
But they condemned the coup, they did not recognize the

448
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:28.839
new government, and they broke all the diplomatic relations. And

449
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:31.000
if that wasn't enough, like I said, just a few

450
00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:33.440
seconds Ago. I keep going ahead of my notes. The

451
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:35.920
Chilean team was now heading into the homeland of the

452
00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:41.480
quote enemy end quote, and yeah, because the military junta

453
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:45.480
was viciously anti communists, but because it was in the

454
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.839
interests of the junta to appear like everything was normal,

455
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:52.119
the Chilean team went to Moscow, and there's a famous

456
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:55.079
picture of Chile's team at the Red Square in Moscow.

457
00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:58.039
And so Chilean went on to face the Soviet Union

458
00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:03.279
at Lenin Stadium, where they ended at a draw zero

459
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:06.640
zero or again nil nil, as they say in proper

460
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:12.200
football terms. Both teams trying to win, you know, Chile

461
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:17.319
by cheating because they had apparently convinced the rabid anti

462
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:21.200
communists Brazilian referee to favorite Chile. But that wasn't enough.

463
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:24.599
They weren't able to win even by doing that. So

464
00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:28.079
then the second leg was scheduled for the twenty first

465
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.599
of November nineteen seventy three and was said to happen

466
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:34.200
in the National Stadium in San Diego, Chile. And in

467
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:37.480
the two months leading up to the match, tensions between

468
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:41.799
Chile and the Soviet Union grew. The Soviet embassy in

469
00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:44.920
San Diego had been attacked oh wow, causing them to

470
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:48.680
leave the country and officially and all relations between the

471
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:53.319
two countries. Then the Soviets demanded a change of venue

472
00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:57.480
because by this point the world knew that Chile was

473
00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:01.359
using the national Stadium as a concentration camp. I mean,

474
00:33:01.480 --> 00:33:04.000
I feel like that makes sense. Yeah, how are you

475
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:07.559
going to hold the soccer match where people were tortured? Right? Right?

476
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:14.640
They demanded a venue change to a neutral stadium because

477
00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:16.880
they felt that it wasn't a legitimate place to play

478
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:22.200
football because again, people were being held captive there. Yeah.

479
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:26.160
FIFA promised to send a delegation to check the stadium,

480
00:33:26.359 --> 00:33:32.079
and then in late October, Avilio de Almeida and Helmuth

481
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:39.359
Causer Caser can't tell ya, like Cajuer maybe, I'm sorry,

482
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:41.680
it's like some German last name. I don't know. I

483
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:45.599
don't know, Vice President and General Secretary of FIFA. That's

484
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:49.119
what they were. They landed in Santiago and were personally

485
00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:53.720
directed by the Minister of Defense the Navy admiral to

486
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:58.599
the stadium and as they walked through the field doing

487
00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:03.960
this inspection, there were six thousand prisoners below the stands.

488
00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:10.960
What yes, who were threatened to stay quiet but there's

489
00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:14.039
absolutely no way that these two didn't know. They just

490
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:18.199
didn't care or were fine staying quiet. That being said,

491
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:20.559
they were probably just fine and they didn't care because

492
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:25.480
I Williode Almeida was Brazilian and sympathetic to the military khunta,

493
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:28.519
who he viewed as the same as his own government,

494
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:32.199
who he was sympathetic for, because they were under a

495
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:37.000
dictatorship junta as well. Yes, another military junta dictatorship. That's right,

496
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:42.239
this was the time of that, yeah, in Latin America. Yeah. Allegedly,

497
00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:49.159
Almeida told the admiral, quote, don't worry about the international

498
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:52.039
media campaign against Chile. The same thing happened to Brazil.

499
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:54.280
It's going to stop. It's going to stop soon end

500
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:58.880
quote Yanks. Yeah. So again they just didn't care. Yeah.

501
00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:03.119
And according to test simony of Gregorio Mena Barrales, a

502
00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:07.480
politician who was imprisoned in the stadium, he wrote that

503
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:10.199
the commission visited the field, or he said he stated

504
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:12.880
that the commission visited the field, walked around the court,

505
00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:16.360
looked with distant eyes at the prisoners, and gave the

506
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:20.400
opinion that you could play in the stadium. Damn. So,

507
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:25.800
according to his testimony, they saw the prisoners and so yeah,

508
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:28.199
FIFA gave the okay for the match to take place,

509
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:32.559
and before the match actually happened, the remaining detainees were

510
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:35.760
transferred to a different detention site in the Atakama Desert.

511
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.840
The Soviet team had traveled to Mexico in preparation for

512
00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:42.199
this match, but the day before it was said to

513
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:45.000
take place, they announced that they would not be traveling

514
00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:49.079
to Chile on moral grounds. Well, let me share their statement.

515
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.760
Quote on moral grounds, the Soviet sportsmen cannot at the

516
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:56.440
current times play in Santiago in the San Diego Stadium,

517
00:35:56.840 --> 00:36:00.360
which is stained with the blood of Chilean patriots. Soviet

518
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:03.519
Union makes a resolute protest and declares that under the

519
00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:07.239
present conditions, when FIFA is acting against the dictates of

520
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:12.400
common sense and allows the Chilean reactionaries to lead her blindfolded,

521
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:15.760
it must refuse to take part in the playoff match

522
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.840
on Chilean soil and holds the FIFA administration responsible for it.

523
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:26.480
End quote based. I mean, I know that obviously the

524
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:32.039
Soviet Union had its own issues, without its faults to

525
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:36.000
say the least, but this is accurate and this is

526
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:49.840
what any honorable government country team sports organization should have done. Yeah, yeah,

527
00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:52.679
and so hours before the match, the president of the

528
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:57.119
Chilean team arrived to the training camp to tell the

529
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:00.679
news that the Soviets had been disqualified, so Chile had

530
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:04.239
won the playoff and like normally this would be like

531
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:07.639
a good happy situation, like you know you see in

532
00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:14.360
quarterfinal games or any qualifying like random sixteen whatever. Today,

533
00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:17.519
like teams are crying if they have they can move on,

534
00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:19.880
or they have been kicked out. You know, it's emotional.

535
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:25.599
But this announcement that the Soviets are disqualified was met

536
00:37:25.639 --> 00:37:30.159
with silence because of the way that it was attained,

537
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:38.000
Like come on, but even worse, FIFA shameless. FIFA told

538
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:39.800
the team that they had to present themselves at the

539
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:44.199
stadium even if these Soviets were not there, or they

540
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:49.920
would be qualified disqualified two and Caselli. Caselli, one of

541
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:55.679
the Chilean players, he remembers before all this, he remembers

542
00:37:55.719 --> 00:38:01.000
having been asked by fans to see if he could

543
00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:04.880
find their son. Oh my god, that gave me the chills.

544
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:07.199
So they're like, no, you have to go because maybe

545
00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:09.800
you'll find my loved one there at the stadium who's

546
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:14.800
been held yeah, university classmate or a neighbor one of

547
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:20.039
another player had Francisco Chiamaco Vallez had actually just gone

548
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:25.599
to stop a ex teammate, Ugo Leppe from the death

549
00:38:25.639 --> 00:38:30.360
Squad's operating at the stadium. Oh wow, yeah, because he

550
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:33.480
and he he had been taken to the statum as

551
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:36.119
prisoner because he was the president of the players union.

552
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:38.880
A union. A union can't have a union. That's a

553
00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:44.000
leftist no, but that was their teammate. Damn start like,

554
00:38:44.119 --> 00:38:50.719
oh my god. Yeah. And so the game lasted thirty seconds.

555
00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:55.400
Chile walked out, you know, onto the field. I think

556
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:57.639
I read there was Yeah, there was fifteen thousand people

557
00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:02.679
in the audience. Also there were saw audience members. Uh huh. Yeah.

558
00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:06.519
Again a thirty second game and the Chilean team like

559
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:10.119
they just like you could watch this take place. There's

560
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:13.800
footage of this quote unquote ghost game as they call

561
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:17.719
it now. The team it's like one of them goes forward,

562
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:21.000
passes to the other passes it again. The feel is empty.

563
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.880
There's the other team there. I would I need to

564
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:27.199
look this up because I feel like it's it would

565
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:31.000
feel almost like otherworldly to watch it was. It was

566
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:34.719
that's a good word for that. And so they had

567
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:38.280
agreed that the captain Francisco Francisco Valles, who I just

568
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:41.679
talked about, Francisco Valles, who what scored the empty goal

569
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:44.199
and so he gets the last pass and he kicks

570
00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:47.960
it into an empty goal because there's no goalie there.

571
00:39:48.280 --> 00:39:52.639
Oh my god. And they declared the match a victory

572
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:58.840
for Chile. But again, like, how do you even celebrate this? Right? Yeah?

573
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:04.280
Because yeah, so they didn't show up, and Chile demanded

574
00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:08.559
a compensation of three hundred thousand dollars for the Soviets

575
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:11.679
because they did not appear. They ended up not doing this,

576
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:14.920
like FIFA was like, no, the suvi Union doesn't have

577
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:19.119
to pack to draw the line somewhere again, somewhere somewhere. Yeah,

578
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:22.239
And eventually the two teams would face each other at

579
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:25.760
a different game, like a friendly before the Soviet Union dissolved,

580
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:30.280
and Chile did win that game, but then under different circumstances.

581
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:36.039
You know, Yeah, Leonardo Velie, a Chilean left winger who

582
00:40:36.199 --> 00:40:39.039
was there that day and you couln't even say he

583
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:41.719
played the match because there was no game, you know, there,

584
00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:44.119
he was there on the field. He would go on

585
00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:47.440
to say that quote, it was horrifying. I think there

586
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:49.719
were still traces of what was happening in the dressing

587
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:52.440
rooms and it was a very difficult thing to swallow.

588
00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:55.320
We didn't know the extent of the dead and the

589
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:58.519
real situation of the country. No one imagined that it

590
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:03.440
would eventually turn into seventeen years of military dictatorship. We

591
00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:06.440
were footballers. We just wanted to go to a World Cup.

592
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:11.039
But as time went by, perhaps perhaps we should have

593
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:14.519
refused to play in those conditions. End quote. Oh my god,

594
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:19.440
I got chills. I mean, that's heroine. Of course, nobody knew.

595
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:22.639
Nobody knew, not even the people who participated in the coup.

596
00:41:23.559 --> 00:41:25.880
They didn't know what was going to happen. Yeah, yeah,

597
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:33.119
I don't think even like regular middle class supporters of

598
00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:38.079
the coup who wanted agen they gone not to do

599
00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:42.559
any sports watching for them or image washing. But no

600
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:49.679
one foresaw the death, the torture, the abuse, the kidnapping,

601
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.880
the brutalization and repression of the people that would go

602
00:41:55.960 --> 00:42:01.360
on for almost two decades, almost too decades. And truly,

603
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:07.360
I don't think that there is another more political match

604
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:11.199
than this one. Like, yeah, the Soviet Union didn't show

605
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:16.760
up because they oppose what was happening. I mean that

606
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:21.760
that is a stand truly it is. And then again

607
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:27.119
the image of the Chilean team passing the ball back

608
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:31.039
and forth amongst themselves and scoring on an empty goal.

609
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:36.000
It's it's heroine, I think it was in Yeah. And

610
00:42:36.039 --> 00:42:38.159
then you know, to see these later quotes, or to

611
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:41.320
know that a player on the team had been asked

612
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:44.159
by fans like can you find my son there? But

613
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:47.719
one that their fellow teammate was imported to be saved

614
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:56.599
from the death squad. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's wild yeah, yeah,

615
00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:01.239
but yeah, that is. That is our episode on political

616
00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:05.440
or when football gets political, which is always yeah, which

617
00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:10.360
is all the time and forever. I have to say

618
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:14.360
I had a great time looking up these notes and

619
00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:19.800
rewatching some of these matches, and it was an experience.

620
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:29.679
It was yeah, okay, anything else soon before we go,

621
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:39.000
I don't think so okay, yeah, no, I don't. I

622
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:42.480
don't have anything. Yeah, and I'm sure our listeners know.

623
00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:47.519
But yeah, like sports are political and football is political

624
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:51.480
because everything is right. Yeah. No. It reminds me too

625
00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:54.960
of back. I mean, I've never been to football, but

626
00:43:55.159 --> 00:44:00.880
all of This makes me think of when Kaepernick started.

627
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:02.599
I don't think he started off kneeling. I think you

628
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:06.320
would just not stand. I think he was sitting for

629
00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:08.480
the he would not stand for the national anthem. But

630
00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:14.280
then he eventually kneeled. Yeah, and all of the hubble bloob.

631
00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:18.639
I can't say that word, hubble of boob. I don't

632
00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:21.639
think it's wrong. But all of the drama, yeah, and

633
00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:27.320
the insane, absolutely insane reactions from people, and people I

634
00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:30.599
remember at the time, well, I don't know, I mean,

635
00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:34.760
obviously there were so many outrageous racist people that were

636
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:39.719
absolutely furious about this. And I remember I had added

637
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:41.679
and I don't know, I just so distinctly remember this.

638
00:44:41.719 --> 00:44:44.039
I had added this random girl from one of my classes.

639
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:46.800
I was at Junior College at the time, and this

640
00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:49.519
girl was like, I believe she was a Syrian because

641
00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:51.159
I mean I talked to her like I was. We

642
00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:55.960
were like acquaintances from class. And I remember on unfrindayed

643
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:59.400
immediately after after this, but I remember, I mean, I

644
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:01.800
was people so use Facebook like this back then. But

645
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:06.320
she was like, because Kaepernick is from Turlock, Turlock, don't

646
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:08.639
mind you. I am in the Central Valley to remind

647
00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:12.960
everyone where we went to high school in Modesto, California. Yes,

648
00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:18.880
in central Central California, And it was truly I saw

649
00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:23.119
how racist and regressive people in the Central Valley are.

650
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:26.280
From all of this well one of the things that

651
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:29.800
helped me see that. But this girl, she posts it

652
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:34.400
on Facebook about how Kaepernick should be thankful because he

653
00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:37.480
was adopted by white people. And then I don't remember

654
00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:40.840
if I commented or not, but I remember thinking, also,

655
00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:43.639
are you recognizing that there's some kind of privilege to

656
00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:47.800
be white, if he should be thankful for being adopted

657
00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:51.599
by white people? And how are you not computing that

658
00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:55.639
what you're saying is contradictive in and of itself, like

659
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:59.880
you're saying he's stupid for doing this. Politics don't belong

660
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:04.480
in football. There's no racism or police brutality against black people.

661
00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:08.320
There's no more racism against black people because Obama's president.

662
00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:12.719
And yet this black man should be thankful that he

663
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:19.199
was adopted by white people. Why why? Why? M h yeah?

664
00:46:19.239 --> 00:46:25.000
So yeah, I mean this is, like you said, sports, football,

665
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:29.840
soccer inherently political, inherently political, especially the World Cup, Like

666
00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:36.320
we're talking about nation states, geopolitics, geopolitics, yeah, colonization because yeah,

667
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:40.000
oh my god, sorry, global science against the West. This

668
00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:43.800
reminds me one thing of no, especially during the World Cup,

669
00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:46.159
is look at who has black players on their team

670
00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:50.280
and who doesn't? Right, who didn't? Actually, now that we're

671
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:51.960
that's so funny because you're like to have any thoughts,

672
00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:54.800
I was like no, But now that we're talking, I

673
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:58.000
have been seeing a lot of different antent creators making

674
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:03.840
videos about at Hintina y and the massacre that they

675
00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:09.360
committed against black people. And I forgot the name. It

676
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:14.000
has a name, this genocide. I believe I put it.

677
00:47:14.199 --> 00:47:16.440
We have it in our list of topics to cover

678
00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:20.920
one day. But until I was looking up you know,

679
00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:25.199
history for this podcast, I didn't know about this and

680
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:28.000
those videos going to like more detail, but it was

681
00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:35.239
in intentional genocide of black people to read black people

682
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:40.840
from Argentina. Yeah, and they they had Europeans come in

683
00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:46.719
to Argentina to replace the black population that they killed

684
00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:50.480
because they didn't want black people in Argintina. Black Aminta

685
00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:54.360
happened in all of Latin America, but no place was

686
00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:56.199
it to me in my opinion, like, no place was

687
00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:59.119
it worse than in Argentina. Yeah, I think this is

688
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:02.079
what black. I mean the world like the and even

689
00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:05.960
now like now, the rest of Latin America doesn't fuck

690
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:10.039
with that Hintina because they are perceived rightfully so as

691
00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:15.840
racists want to be Europeans. But it's they call themselves

692
00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:20.639
the Europeans of Latin America. Yeah. Yeah, and it's like

693
00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:25.719
this of course this is their history. Yeah. Even researching

694
00:48:26.920 --> 00:48:30.719
these notes for this episode, I came across one of

695
00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:35.760
the staff ground staff for that field who were in

696
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:39.039
charge of like putting together the nets for the gold

697
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:43.599
And when he's talking to a journalist about this, he's like, well,

698
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:47.280
you know, we consider ourselves the Europeans of Latin America

699
00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:49.159
and so we needed to do our goal nets in

700
00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:52.480
a European style. And he just like he just says this, Well,

701
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:57.760
it's normal, it's normal, there is Yeah, but no note

702
00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:04.840
that they had no black players in their team. Yeah.

703
00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:07.360
And you know what, it's not only like Argentina and

704
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:10.239
that I've been learning about. I also have been watching

705
00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:14.480
a lot of videos about Belgium and what they did

706
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:17.519
to the Congo. Well you read that book, Yeah, I

707
00:49:17.559 --> 00:49:21.320
also read that book King the Opold Coast highly recommend

708
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:22.960
that book. So, I mean, I already knew about it,

709
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:25.760
but I'm just I'm seeing people talking about it. Oh yeah,

710
00:49:25.960 --> 00:49:29.559
is what I meant. But even then, oh sorry, okay,

711
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:33.599
even then, in these national teams, you can see what

712
00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:37.519
colonization has done in the players, like how these teams

713
00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:41.239
historically were like all white, now they are not. Right,

714
00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:45.519
Like Belgium's team, Lucaco is a top top player. He's

715
00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:47.639
like he's aging now, but he was for a very

716
00:49:47.679 --> 00:49:49.320
long time a top player for the national team and

717
00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:53.280
he's black. Right, you can see the effects of colonization

718
00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:59.719
as these teams get less and less white. But Argentina, no,

719
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:04.480
they or not, Yeah, because they have deliberately Erabian image

720
00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:08.000
to uphold exactly. They have the image of Europeans in

721
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:13.239
Latin America. Yeah to hold Yeah, outrageous. I have been seen.

722
00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:18.119
Oh my god, where was it the Congo or was it?

723
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:20.679
Oh my god, I can't remember which African country it

724
00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:25.400
was that they were eliminated already, but there was this man.

725
00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:29.519
It was it was Congo because the US also intervened

726
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.960
in Congo and overthrew their democratically elected president. But it's

727
00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:38.519
his name to doing for their liking. Yeah, something like that,

728
00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:49.000
because every team has like a superfan, and Michael Kukabo Ladinga,

729
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:54.400
who's known as Lumumba Veya, he is their football football

730
00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:57.320
like their fan. They're super fan. These super fans follow

731
00:50:57.360 --> 00:50:59.239
them like we have a super dunb one for Mexico.

732
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:05.559
I forgot his name already. It's silly, but yeah, Congo's team,

733
00:51:05.719 --> 00:51:10.400
he stands still the whole game, the whole game, the

734
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:15.320
whole game, he's dressed as lu Mungo Vea, who was overthrown.

735
00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:18.039
I think like there was a coup and then he

736
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:19.519
was like in prison and then he was like killed

737
00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:22.519
in the most vicious way possible. Yeah, and so he

738
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:29.360
was the prime minister. M Yeah, he he follows the team.

739
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:33.920
They were able Congo was able to like add him

740
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:36.159
onto their rosters so he could travel with them, So

741
00:51:36.159 --> 00:51:37.719
he would be allowed to travel with them for the

742
00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:41.440
World Cup. And it's it's I don't know, I keep

743
00:51:41.559 --> 00:51:44.400
using this word, but it's harrowing to see him in this,

744
00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:47.559
in this in the audience. Oh yeah, oh yeah, it

745
00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:51.639
really is. It's impactful. And so which I mentioned as

746
00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:56.039
we were talking about the overthrow of Loumumba following his execution.

747
00:51:56.719 --> 00:52:01.440
After the coup, the US backed Military Office or Mobutu

748
00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:08.320
sesse Seco, who was then who established a three decade dictatorship.

749
00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:13.119
So yeah, I've been seeing people talk about this and

750
00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:17.480
basically like intervention when it comes to Belgium Congo intervention

751
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:21.440
by Belgium, you know, back in the day, and then

752
00:52:21.559 --> 00:52:24.519
more recently the United States, especially when they played against

753
00:52:24.519 --> 00:52:27.880
each other because they were saying, oh, no, two countries

754
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:31.920
have been there. I saw creators like from the Congo.

755
00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:34.599
They're like, oh, this is triggering to see these the

756
00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:38.000
United States and Belgium playing against each other, because no,

757
00:52:38.119 --> 00:52:41.760
two countries have been more involved in the Congo than

758
00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:48.280
these two. Yeah. Yeah. And as a Mexican, I had

759
00:52:48.280 --> 00:52:49.920
to say, it was very fun to see the US

760
00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:53.800
lose by that much. No, yeah, yeah, it was glorious.

761
00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:57.480
It made me feel better about Mexico's laws. But that's

762
00:52:57.480 --> 00:52:59.599
the same, like we said, we say all the time,

763
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:05.239
these are Asian states which come it's inherently uh problematic.

764
00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:10.960
Yeah yeah, Okay. Should we end the episode now? Yeah?

765
00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:13.679
I think I think that's that's all I have. I

766
00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:15.440
didn't even have time. I almost want to do a

767
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:18.800
part two because this was so fun for me. Yeah, no,

768
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:20.760
we can, we can do it, okay, okay, because they

769
00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:25.079
want to talk about Maradona ooh and his pro Cuban

770
00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:29.360
pro Palesesine self okay, and although he was I want

771
00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:31.079
to save it for that episode, but I'll tell you

772
00:53:31.159 --> 00:53:34.199
right now. They called him the N word in Argentina.

773
00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:38.159
Argentine other Argentina, doesn't surprise me. Yeah, and they would

774
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:40.280
say it as an insult that he was more Bolivian

775
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:45.880
than than from Argentina, calling him like basically Indian because

776
00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:48.840
he was more brown than like you know, not well

777
00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:51.840
they're European. So yeah, yeah, but I want to talk

778
00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:55.559
about that and his his politicalness him himself. I think

779
00:53:55.599 --> 00:53:59.119
it warrant a part two for sure. Yes, okay, I'm

780
00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:02.400
gonna get started on that. More soccer, Yes, I'm sorry,

781
00:54:02.440 --> 00:54:06.960
I'm obsessed. I have a problem. Every hybrid taxation now

782
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:09.679
no no, no, Every World Cup I obsessively watch. And

783
00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:11.880
then I started watching Liga Mix the same year after

784
00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:14.880
the World I'm thinking of watching it too. Oh yeah, no,

785
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:17.840
I usual immediately like tune into Liga Mix. It's all

786
00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:22.880
on Vix Liga Mix. But anyway, yeah, let's send this Okay,

787
00:54:23.360 --> 00:54:26.760
all right, and we hope that this was one less

788
00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:33.920
Estudia Unknown for you. Bye bye Estorias Are Known is

789
00:54:33.960 --> 00:54:37.119
produced by Carmen and Christina, researched by Carmen and Christina,

790
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:40.320
edited by Christina. You can find sources for every episode

791
00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:43.880
Attias Unknown dot com and in our show notes. Creating

792
00:54:43.880 --> 00:54:45.199
the podcast has a lot of work, so if you

793
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:47.400
want to help us out financially, you can do so

794
00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:51.320
by supporting us on Patreon at Patreon dot com. Slash

795
00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:52.440
she studied as an own podcast