WEBVTT
1
00:00:12.199 --> 00:00:15.519
Hi everyone. This is Carmen and Christina and this is
2
00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:18.640
Esia Unknown, a podcast where we're talking about Latin American history.
3
00:00:18.719 --> 00:00:22.800
Sometimes it's horrible, dealing with topics like racism, corruption, and genocide.
4
00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:27.079
But more than that, it's also about resistance, power and community.
5
00:00:27.879 --> 00:00:36.439
But today today it's about the most beautiful game football. Oh,
6
00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:39.439
the people's game. The people's game. Yeah, the People's game.
7
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:43.960
I'm going to title this keep Politics out of Football.
8
00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:49.960
And with that, let's just get into it. Let's do it, Okay,
9
00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:55.000
keep politics out of sports. Shut up and dribble, keep
10
00:00:55.039 --> 00:01:00.240
football politics free. Since the World Cup started, and like
11
00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:04.200
every single sports ever, we hear all the sports. Yeah,
12
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:06.599
all the sports. We hear a variation of those like
13
00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:09.319
three things that I just said again and again. But
14
00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:16.040
these two things, politics and sports, they can't be separated.
15
00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:22.680
They have never been separate. They go together, especially when
16
00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:26.760
it comes to the World Cup. Yeah, the World Cup
17
00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:32.840
has taken place during dictatorships, legitimizing these violent governments. And
18
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:35.879
there's a term for this. It's called sports watching, a
19
00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:39.200
term used to describe the practice of governments, individuals, or
20
00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:41.599
other groups to use the sport as a means to
21
00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.719
improve the reputation by distracting or diverting attention away from
22
00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:49.200
activities considered by others as controversial or unethical, a form
23
00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:53.359
of propaganda, if you will. Yeah, sports watching can be
24
00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:58.400
accomplished through hosting sporting events like the World Cup or
25
00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:04.799
the Olympics, purchasing or sponsoring sporting teams, or participating in
26
00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:09.360
a sport. And yeah, all those things, especially applied to
27
00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:13.639
the World Cup, not to mention the official recognition of
28
00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:16.840
certain teams who gets to play and who doesn't, Yeah,
29
00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:25.199
such as Israel who gets to play while other teams
30
00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:32.120
don't get recognized as existing. Wait were they part of
31
00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:35.080
the World Cup? No? Right, they were part of the
32
00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.639
qualifiers for the World Cup, but they fucking suck so
33
00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:44.120
they didn't qualify. Okay, Actually there's clips of Holland early
34
00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:49.199
in Holland, just during the Israel versus Norway game that
35
00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:54.000
disqualified them, where they get their ass kicked, just him
36
00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:56.520
in the game. There's like highlights of it that are
37
00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.960
fun to watch. And he also donated, they say he
38
00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:04.919
or like Norway's team donated. Oh actually I heard of that. Yeah,
39
00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:11.199
funds from that game to Palestinian children. But yeah, I
40
00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:15.520
mean like inherently political. Yeah, and that's like without even
41
00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:21.560
getting into FIFA ignoring like women. Oh right, I mean,
42
00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:23.960
do you find is there a women's team in FIFA?
43
00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:24.360
No?
44
00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.039
No, no, there is now. But like the first Women's
45
00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:31.960
World Cup, when was that nineteen seventy and then nineteen
46
00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.080
seventy one in Mexico? Was that a second and they
47
00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:38.280
just completely like ignored it and called it like unofficial.
48
00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:43.280
So there's actually a really good documentary called that follows
49
00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.520
the women's teams in this World Cup that that happened
50
00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:49.879
in Mexico City, in which the Mexico came in second.
51
00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:54.000
I want to say, ooh, listen, the Mexican women's national team.
52
00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:57.639
They're good. It's like us saying where the women's team
53
00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:01.199
is better than the men's team. Yeah, yeah, m hm,
54
00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:04.240
at least i've heard. I don't keep up with US soccer.
55
00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:08.520
Oh yeah, I know the US women's national team they've
56
00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:12.159
won like five times. Yeah, they're really good. Right, I'm
57
00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:16.199
sure I've heard that. Yeah. And all over the world
58
00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:19.839
football is considered the most accessible sport, the people's game.
59
00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:24.240
Like you said, every World Cup we see underdog stories
60
00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:27.759
like in this World Cup with Vere or I t
61
00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:34.839
even my heart left with Have you seen those memes? Yeah,
62
00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:37.480
of like where's Mexico and then like you point to
63
00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:39.759
the map and it's like where's and you point to
64
00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:43.240
your heart. Yeah I have Yeah, that was yeah, that
65
00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:47.399
was that was us. Actually I saw a TikTok of
66
00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:51.839
a little kid crying when they were disqualified and or
67
00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:57.800
it made me cry. I've been getting tiktoks of kids
68
00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:03.079
like sending messages to Mexican players, like there's one kid
69
00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:05.240
who's like, I don't know, maybe seven, and he's crying
70
00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:08.800
and he's like, can you tried your best? Oh? I
71
00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:15.279
haven't seen though. Every time I see I can't rehabit anyone. Yeah. Anyway,
72
00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:19.160
point is the People's Game is where we were at?
73
00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:24.399
Yes Underton, Yes, yes, And because we are recording this
74
00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:28.800
just a few days after Mexico's elimination, inturn crime so out.
75
00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.000
Although every four years, you know, it's like I get
76
00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:37.879
my hopes up this year more than others. Not gonna lie. Yeah,
77
00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:39.160
this team was good.
78
00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:46.639
This team anyway, we thought, why not do an episode
79
00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.519
on a couple of the most political matches that have
80
00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:52.040
to do with Latin America.
81
00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:59.240
And shout out to you for introducing me to bibliote Caiando, Yes,
82
00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:03.519
where they he did a two part series with the
83
00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:08.240
top ten most political matches like in the world, fascinating
84
00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:12.399
episodes and yeah, well we got the idea, so thank you,
85
00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:15.680
thank you. And so this brings me to the nineteen
86
00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:19.040
seventy eight World Cup, hosted just two years after the
87
00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:24.160
overthrow of President Isabel Peron, which we do have a
88
00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:28.519
couple of episodes on, specifically about Las Madres, la plasade Mayo,
89
00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:33.000
not the coup itself. That's maybe one day future topic. Yeah,
90
00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:36.959
so I should add when Argentina was chosen to be
91
00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:40.000
a host nation in nineteen sixty six, there was no coup,
92
00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:44.560
no military junta, and Juan Domingo Peron was still president
93
00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:49.240
of Argentina. And in fact, his signature gesture inspired the
94
00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:51.879
logo for the nineteen seventy eight World Cup. And I
95
00:06:51.879 --> 00:06:54.959
put pictures on the documents that you could see and
96
00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:57.040
we'll post these pictures. I'll mature to post them, or
97
00:06:57.079 --> 00:06:59.319
we will make a video world We'll show you one
98
00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:02.480
of the two. Sure, but Beroon was known to put
99
00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:06.560
his arms up by his head during speeches, and that
100
00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:10.839
is the logo for a World Cup in Argentina and
101
00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:13.800
the military junta tried to get this changed. They didn't
102
00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:19.199
like that this was done because of Beroon. But when
103
00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:21.000
they tried to get a change, it was way too late,
104
00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:23.959
like the merch was all made. It was too late,
105
00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:28.560
but they tried. And I will keep the context short.
106
00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:32.360
One day we will do an actual series on, you know,
107
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:35.639
the coup and the war in Argentina, the dirty war.
108
00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:40.279
So Isabel Peron became president after her husband Juan Peron
109
00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:44.199
died of natural causes, and there was already growing instability
110
00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:47.439
in the country for a very very long time, leading
111
00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:49.839
to the coup, which took place on the twenty fourth
112
00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:54.199
of March nineteen seventy six. Just before one am, Isabel
113
00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:58.600
Peron was detained and taken by helicopter to Residentia el Messidor,
114
00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:03.560
a small French star castle in Biya, la Angostura and
115
00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:11.079
the Necan Province of Argentina. There, Major General Jose Rojelal announced,
116
00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:15.240
Madame President, the armed forces have decided to take political
117
00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:20.680
control of the country and you are hereby dismissed and arrested. Damn. Yeah.
118
00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:23.839
Then at three ten in the morning, the military junta
119
00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:28.399
gave their first official broadcast quote. People are advised that,
120
00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:31.480
as of today, the country is under the operational control
121
00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:35.679
of the General Commanders Junta of the Armed Forces. We
122
00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:40.759
recommend to all inhabitants strict compliance with the provisions and
123
00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:46.399
directives emanating from the military, security or police authorities, and
124
00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:50.679
to be extremely careful to avoid individual or group actions
125
00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:55.480
and attitudes that may require drastic intervention from the operating personnel.
126
00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:03.200
Signed General Jrge Rafael Videla, Admiral Emilio Eduardo Massa and
127
00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:08.000
Brigadier Orlando Ramon Agosti, and a state of exception and
128
00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:12.200
martial law was put in place. Five days later, on
129
00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:17.360
March twenty ninth, General Jorge ra Fer Videla was named
130
00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:22.840
the president of the military Junta and then the dirty war,
131
00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:27.200
as it would be called by them, ensued. And they
132
00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:29.759
they called it a dirty war, but it was like
133
00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:38.519
really more decapturing, torturing, disappearing of subjugation of people who
134
00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:42.399
opposed the hunta and anyone that was labeled as a
135
00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:49.519
service left dispressive. Yeah, and at least thirty thousand were
136
00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:53.320
disappeared or killed in this in this less than ten
137
00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:57.759
year period. That is how many people were disappeared or
138
00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:01.600
killed at least thirty thousand, if not pregnant women who
139
00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:05.200
were disappeared had their babies taken, like we talked about
140
00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:08.440
in our episode where we talked with the author of
141
00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:11.039
A Flower Traveled in My Blood and in our episode
142
00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:18.919
about as Susinavia Floor. So yeah, people were tortured, killed, disappeared,
143
00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:23.039
babies were taken, redistributed really as if they were like
144
00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:28.080
just like into military families. Yes, exactly. As the disappeared
145
00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.919
grew and the human rights violations by the junta also grew,
146
00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:35.200
Henry Kissinger privately assured the junta that they had the
147
00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:39.080
full support of the US government in their war. Material
148
00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:42.519
obtained by the Washington National Security Archive under the Freedom
149
00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:48.120
of Information Act revealed conversations from a meeting on October seventh,
150
00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:52.320
nineteen seventy six, in which Henry Kissinger said, quote, Look,
151
00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:54.879
our basic attitude is that we would like you to succeed,
152
00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:59.159
as in succeed in their dirty war and their disappearing
153
00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:03.840
of all these people. Kissinger or was reported as saying, quote,
154
00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:06.320
I have an old fashioned view that friends ought to
155
00:11:06.360 --> 00:11:09.279
be supported. What is not understood in the United States
156
00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:11.799
is that you have a civil war. We read about
157
00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:15.679
human rights problems, but not the context. The quicker you succeed,
158
00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:18.279
the better. The human rights problem is a growing one.
159
00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:22.519
We want a stable situation. We won't cause you unnecessary difficulties.
160
00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:25.240
If you can finish before Congress gets back, the better.
161
00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:30.679
Whatever freedoms you could restore. What help ridiculous? Absolutely ridiculous. Yeah,
162
00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:35.559
like no, what else can you expect from Henry Kissinger? Right,
163
00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:40.440
And that's the basic context of this nineteen seventy eight
164
00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:44.600
World Cup. The military kunta was using this tournament as
165
00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:51.080
an opportunity for nationalistic propaganda and to legitimize its dictatorship. Meanwhile,
166
00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:54.759
Las Madres, la Plasa de Mayo, the Mothers of the disappeared,
167
00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:57.559
We're using the World Cup to ask for help. As
168
00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:00.919
crowds gather in the stadium and journal as were arriving,
169
00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:04.759
Las Madras could be seen every Thursday, they met and
170
00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:08.200
they were walking circles in the in the plaza, and
171
00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:12.360
they were able to speak with journalists who were encouraged
172
00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:16.639
by like human rights groups outside of Argentina to talk
173
00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:19.879
to them. And so like we've we've already posted one
174
00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:23.039
video where I show at the end of interview of
175
00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:30.480
one of those interviews and it's it's it's heartbreaking. Yeah.
176
00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:34.960
And Argentina did go on to win this World Cup,
177
00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:37.440
but it was a it was like it was a
178
00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.159
sting to win. It was like it was this account.
179
00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:47.080
There were there were claims of alleged match fixing and interference.
180
00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:56.799
Mm hmm hmmm, something some would say continues today. Yeah.
181
00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:02.720
Two years into the coup, everyone in Argentina knew someone
182
00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:06.960
who had been disappeared, someone who was missing. The team's
183
00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:10.360
manager says that Luis Menotti told the team not to
184
00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:13.159
win for the Junta, but to win for the metal workers,
185
00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:16.879
the butchers, the bakers, and the taxi drivers who filled
186
00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.480
the stadium. I remember seeing an interview with one of
187
00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:24.440
the mothers of the Basa de Mayo, who you know,
188
00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:27.519
her husband would watch the games and she would be like,
189
00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:31.000
how can anyone be celebrating when my child is missing,
190
00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:33.360
when we don't know where these people are. And so
191
00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:39.639
the contrast of that is striking. Yeah. Another thing of
192
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:43.399
note during this World Cup is that during the matches,
193
00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:47.159
the goalpost had a black band around them. I put
194
00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:51.919
a picture in our doc, cool doc, Okay, I see it. Yeah,
195
00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:54.759
And so the ground staff apparently put them there as
196
00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.000
a form of remembrance for the disappeared, and when asked
197
00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:00.399
about it, they said, like, this isn't a protest, this
198
00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:04.919
is in remembrance of the disappeared. And they had discussed
199
00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:07.919
like what they could do to bring awareness themselves, Like
200
00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:10.679
the mothers are out there, they're bringing awareness. What can
201
00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:14.480
we as a ground staff who maintain this field, Like,
202
00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:17.480
what can we do? And they discussed cutting a message
203
00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:21.159
across the grass, painting a message somewhere cameras could see it,
204
00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.519
asking players themselves to wear a black armband when playing
205
00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:30.440
to mourn the disappeared. But as they like talked, all
206
00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:36.200
those ideas while the military hunta is you know out
207
00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.360
there being the military junta, all those ideas seemed dangerous.
208
00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:42.679
I could see that, because that would be easier to
209
00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:48.480
target someone, or it's a more blatant display of yeah, disagreement.
210
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.639
They wanted to show that they were they were thinking
211
00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:55.440
of the disappeared, but they didn't want to become disappeared
212
00:14:55.480 --> 00:15:02.120
themselves while doing it right right. Difficult thing to balance there, exactly.
213
00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:05.440
So they ended up putting the black armbands on the goalposts.
214
00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.240
And when the generals of the junta asked like, what
215
00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:11.240
are these why are they here? What is this the ground?
216
00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:14.960
Steff was like, Oh, that's just tradition, Like what do
217
00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:17.000
you know about the people's sport. We always do this
218
00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:20.879
exactly exactly, and they left them there every game. If
219
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.279
you look up highlights of this World Cup, you will
220
00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:27.000
see the armbands. Wow, I just I just saw them.
221
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:29.679
I was just looking at highlights of that World Cup
222
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:33.120
and something else. That's just I don't know, horrible to
223
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:36.720
know what's happening. Just a mile from where the World
224
00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:42.240
Cup final was being played, the ESMA, the Esla mechanical
225
00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:50.519
was operating, and this became was used as a Clandesign
226
00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:55.639
detention center. Because that was the thing about this military junta.
227
00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:57.840
You know, every dictatorship just seems a little bit different.
228
00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:02.559
This military junta put a lot of the kindescand detention
229
00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:06.759
centers in places where people like walked by every day,
230
00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:09.480
so they were like hidden, but not hidden. They looked
231
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:13.039
ordinary from the outside, uh huh, but inside it was
232
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:15.799
like horrible things were happening and everyone knew what they were.
233
00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:18.960
And Thesma was one of these, and it was one
234
00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:23.679
of the worst detention centers. Around five thousand disappeared detainees
235
00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:28.759
passed through there. There were instances of torture, slave labor,
236
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:36.279
the kidnapping, abduction of babies born in captivity happening, the
237
00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:40.960
preparation of death flights, which I don't know if we've
238
00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:43.759
I haven't said what they were in this episode, but
239
00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:46.559
she led their deathlights to when we talked about what
240
00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:49.200
these death flights were. But that's how they disappeared people.
241
00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:51.840
We talked about it in the SUSINAI Ya Florid pisode
242
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:54.600
because that's how she was disappeared. Yeah, we thing we
243
00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:58.519
probably talked about it in the episode about the Book