What They Stole with Paige Towers

0:16 Hey, everyone, This is Carmen and Christina and this is Ittoia's Unknown, a podcaster where we talk about Latin American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals with heavy topics like racism, corruption, and genocide. But more than that, it's also about resistance, power and community. And today today we're not talking about Latin American history. Today we have a special guest author, Page Towers, and she's on to tell us about her new book. But for us a little bit about Page. Page Towers is a creative and freelance writer who earned a BA in political science from the University of Iowa and an MFA in creative nonfiction writing from Emerson College.

0:58 Her writing has appeared in the World, She's Impost, The Guardian, and several other publications, and her second book, What They Stole, A Familicide Rooted in Inner Country Adoption, is out now from University of Iowa Press, and the book is a work of literary journalism investigating Bertha and Harry Holt, an evangelical couple who adopted eight children after the Korean War, told through lens of a familia side that happened in Iowa City, while also examining how raised religion, capitalism, and global inequalities still drive the inner country adoption in the street today. What an amazing book. Heavy heavy, It is very heavy, very heavy, but very important. Yes, as you'll find out why and what this is about in the episode.

1:50 And unsurprising, Latin America does come up because as you know, we've done two episodes on both Chile and Guatemala and their the adoption, international adoption that went on there, and the systems are connected and so yeah, yeah, very very similar horrible situations. Yes, so it's it feels weird to say, but enjoy the episode. Also check out the book. I mean we're into dark, heavy topics here. No one will be surprised about that. But I want to say this has been one of my top books of the year, if not the top not I think the top nonfiction book.

2:32 I'm trying to remember what else, what other nonfiction I've read this year, but for sure it's up there. It was infre reading, captivating, informative, so so important. Yes, yes, here everyone, we have a special guest today. And Page Towers and I am writer based in Bellingham and my second book just came out. It's called What They Stole a familicide rooted in inner country. Adoption, Yes, and what a fascinating book. What They Stole examines both the history of US adoption from Korea and the two thousand and eight familicide case of Stephen how do you pronounce his last name?

3:24 Suple? Souple? Okay? I was wondering that the whole time is. Stephen Souple who killed his wife and four adopted children from Korea. Before we talk about Harry Hole and the whole agency, the dark and troubled history of US adoption in Korea, and how things are connected to Stephen Souple, We're interested to know what drew you to this topic. So I was originally drawn to this topic because my hometown is actually where this Familla side occurred. I'm originally from Iowa City, Iowa, and so I was a senior at the University of Iowa in two thousand and eight when this murder suicide happened. You know, iOS to be is like a fairly small, close net community, and so it was it was Yeah, as you can imagine, it was horrifying and shocking for the entire community. And I didn't know the superls personally, but I had like a hundred social connections to them and would see them around town sometimes. That said, it didn't really occur to me to think about the adoption side of the story until a year later two thousand and nine. You'll remember two thousand and eight, there was the economic fallout. I gave up my career plans because I didn't want to take on more debt, and I went to South Korea to teach English. And while I was there, I was like, why is this modern, like thriving country still sending children to the West for adoption? But it really again this question,

4:58 It really didn't hit me until like twenty nineteen that I started googling and researching the case. Honestly, what happened was there was like a Reddit thread for adoptees, and I became obsessed and I was just reading as much as I could. I was clicking on all the links they were sharing, and pretty soon I was buying books written by adopted people and adoptive activists and academics, and then I started reading pro adoption literature just to understand, like what's happening here, to try to understand how this came to be. And so, I mean, honestly, within like two weeks of googling this case, I was like, I'm going to try to write this book, which it was ambitious. Yeah, so it took me like six years to do all the research and all the interviews. But yeah, so I knew right away I was at least going to.

5:51 Try it would be read it. Yep, it would be ready. Yeah, and it makes sense, total sense. And it took that long because it's so there's just so much information and such a huge time span that you explored. Can you tell us about Harry Holt his audacity and how his evangelical beliefs played a role in the way he developed his adoption practice. I guess those things affected adoption as a whole in general too. Right, So, Harry and birth of Holt are actually a Midwestern couple of Retho went to University of Iowa. Actually they were first cousins. They were part of this very conservative steck called the Plymouth Brethren, often mistaken for Midde Night's extremely biblically literal born again Christian would be like the closest proximity. During the Great Depression, they moved to Oregon and they became very, very wealthy through logging and farming and building businesses, and as you stated, they became evangelical born again Christians, but they did not have any experience in child welfare whatsoever. Harry, he had like an eighth grade education, which is fine. He was farming. But what happened was in nineteen fifty four there was a missionary that came back from South Korea, went to Eugene organ and put on this big presentation about the multi

7:24 racial children in South Korea. And these were children that were fathered by US soldiers born to Korean women. And this was sort of the first time obviously that this has happened on the Korean peninsula, and in general there was also from the Korean War which had ended in nineteen fifty three. It was also mass displacement and a huge lack of social services, poverty, a family separation. So the Holts, after this presentation, they very quickly felt called by God to go adopt eight multiracial children. They didn't this was not a legal thing at the time. It was only legal to adopt up to two children, unless that meant splitting up multiple siblings. But Harry went to Korea.

8:13 He searched through orphanages and he picked out eight children. He received support from senators back home and they wrote him a special act in Congress, and he flew back home in nineteen fifty five with these eight children, and it was a huge national media event, like Life magazine, book magazine everywhere across the country covered this event. And with all this media publicity, suddenly, yes, they've launched a very primitive adoption agency. And what my book really focuses on is the complete lack of regulation, and they're inexperience.

8:56 So I think what people don't know about the whole is that there was no screening of adoptive families, There was no background checks. What was required of families is that they'd be born again Christians. And so that is our early history of inner country adoption from South Korea, which was really the first country to really explode this industry. And as you can imagine, as I wrote in the book, very quickly things start to fall apart, and a lot of these children did not thrive and did not survive their childhoods. And I forget what you asked me. From there, I feel like always I can talk about because it is so wild and radical, I can just focus on nineteen fifty five for other forever. But basically what happens after that, just like the quick story, is that the Wholts start bringing children over on what they call babylifts.

10:00 So instead of letting children recuperate and gain health in South Korea, or join a foster family, or help them stay with their biological families, or have domestic go through a domestic adoption process, instead the children are placed on these Corgo planes one hundred out of time, some of them only a couple of weeks old, five six pounds, some of them tuberculosis, pneumonia, all sorts of ailments, and as you can imagine, some of the kids don't survive that flight. Those flights and people would pick up their children's site unseen in American airports, and that system lasted for decades and expanded in numbers that were huge by like the nineteen eighties, had become this very competitive capitalistic industry.

10:54 And then as we know it also they took this model from South Korea and applied it to and other mostly post colonial, non Christian majority countries. It was it was so frustrating to first, too. Well and like infuriating honestly, first I couldn't believe how the whole government based not the whole government, but you know what I mean, like they made a whole they changed the law for him to be able to do this, and I wasn't shocked, but at the same time, I was like, I can't, I couldn't believe it. And it was like it was being after thing that because there were standards being set at the time about adoption and there was child wild for professionals because mind you, like things like this had already happened here right like when I can't remember the year, but the Indian Child Wolf Act was established because of situations like this where why evangelical Christian families, you know, felt that children were better off with white families and so there was like standards being adopted and being like put in place, and they tried to talk to Harry about it, and he just felt like he knew better.

12:15 Right. Yeah, they were a very anti government couple, very paranoid, very conspiracy theory based. And I think I'm so glad you brought that up because I feel like they've been credited as like the pioneers of inter country adoption, which this is a term that actually used as at like you know, a celebratory thing, a super problematic and horrible, but also they they weren't. Inter country adoption did exist, especially after World War Two, and again there was like mass displacement of children and family separation, but like you said, there were regulations, there was screening, there were social workers involved, there was attempts at family reunification, and so like what the whole stint was so highly unorthodox and radical, and then obviously it changed.

13:17 Everything wild inappropriately wild. Imperialism and racism were major influences in the way that international adoption developed in Korea, both from the US and Korea. Can you tell us about the authoritarian Korean government and their role in creating this system of international adoption? Sure? So, I think what people need to remember is that South Korea was a colonized country after World War Two. They had just escaped the brutal colonization by Japan. And so you have, without like going to deep into it, you have the Korean War, where you have North Korea is propped up by the Soviet Union in China and they obviously have a communist government, and then you have South Korea, which the US very quickly joins the war and it's a horrible brutal war with mass civilian death, and then by the end of it, everybody ends up at the same line they started from the what's the word the d m Z I'm always afraid. And so the US has a leader propped up, a man, a Christian man who went to Princeton, Sigmund Ri, and his

14:51 focus was it's it's it's hard to say, and it's complicated that the country need to read the building. But there was no funds going to social services whatsoever. Instead, there was just always sort of this focus on the looming threat of communism, and so there was a massive military build up. You also have this government that's very focus on like a racial purity is the propaganda that's happening, and so right away having multiracial children and the country really challenges this this new line that they've established. And it also of course deals with with misogyny because you have all of these women in camp towns who are having sex with you as soldiers, and you're in some European soldiers it's to somehow survive to make a living, and so the Korean government really wanted to just rid the country of these children in order to solve this perceived social issue. And at the same time, of course, like we know that it's all about money too. They did not have to put funds that were needed to support women, girls and women in camptowns. They didn't have to support you know, they didn't have to make room for child care, they didn't have to establish a foster

16:23 care system of any kind. And so like when you have this man Harry Fold coming in and allegedly passing out a lot of money for these children and the you know, white American families back home arcs you know, more than happy to pay whatever fee to bring home the children and very quickly like against this pipeline of children. And I should say too that in America, the most you know, because of the publicity that the US media is drowning up, the child that was most culturally focused on is the Korean child who's been whitened by their American father. In Korea, you have the government wanting to make sure that they are adopting out children who were fathered by black men. This most challenges their racial purity theories.

17:20 And so it just was like the perfect storm and Harry Will could not have done this, of course, without the support of the Korean government and the kind of behind the scenes support and lack of regulation of the US government. Yeah, yeah, definitely describing it as a perfect storm. It's literally all thinking right before you said it. And it sounds so similar to what happen in so many other countries as well. And you wrote about it like a little bit in the book too, like in Guatemala after the war, and we've talked about in some of our podcast episodes. I think about Chile, we talked about Christina Ramle and Guatemala. You've done you did them?

18:01 Oh yeah, it was me And yeah, it's so similar where the authoritarian government instead of well I mean it's not their government, so what do you expect, but like they they in order to solve this problem, like I think it was Chillain that instance, where they were like, oh, let's get rid of poverty, and their way of doing that was getting rid of all the impoverished children, and it was it was just so similar. It like created a black market of. International adoption where they had like private attorneys that were acting as I forget the word, but basically making these adoptions happen. And they were like, yeah, they were stealing in some instances, like children from the mother's arms, and I don't know, it just it's just so hard to like know, like things like that happened. But when I was reading the book and it talked about like women being pressured or hiding from Harry and he's I'm like, if people, if people are hiding from you, you still think you're doing the right thing.

19:00 Yeah, he's a poor old savior. Yeah, And it was a lot, you know, like. The amount of ego and paternalism and it's like a sense of Western and Christian exceptionalism that you can take a baby from its mother and feel that you are like bestowed by God to do this is incredible. But yeah, I mean the systems that you're talking about that I would argue that anytime the inner country adoption a follows these historic lines of colonialism and b is a private a private industry where cash is exchanged, it's going to lead to bribery and coercion and kidnapping and all of these horrific things that you've saw in Latin America especially, but definitely Korea and their places as well.

20:02 Yeah, And it feels like such a timely book because of the way that things are going in our country, and we're seeing so many things that can lead to instances like this of coorse adoption, right. With Roe v. Wade and what happened there, And there were just yeah, there were so many themes I guess, like we're talking like reproductive, like coercion, like lack of options for women, and so many things that feed into a system like this. But something that I hadn't thought about before, I guess.

20:44 I guess I had just assumed that internationally adopted children receive citizenship here when they're adopted by parents from the United States. I had never I never thought it would be different or anything. And it feels timely too because of what's going on with immigration more intensely now too. But can you share about some of the experiences of the Korean adoptees that you wrote around the book pertaining to like citizenship and things like that. Right, So, it was not until year two thousand that international inner country adopt adoptees receive citizen UO citizenship upon arriving on American soil. So I think there are around maybe eighteen thousand or a little more than that of Korean adopted people who do not have citizenship still. And what happened was in two thousand they changed policy so that in our country, adoptees receive citizenship, but they did not go retroactively by day I mean Republicans, sorry, they did not allow to retroactively go back and grant citizens ship to those babies, toddlers, children who had been brought to the United States against their will. And so a lot of adopted people have written and talked about that

22:15 their families. I think I think their families largely either didn't know or did not understand how to navigate the very complex US immigration system. Sometimes it was an act of like purposeful political abuse. But whatever happened when these children reach eighteen and they're trying to applied for you know, like a college loan or a passport, anything anything that would require citizen citizenship, it's just this shocking finding out like, hey, you are not a citizen. And so people have been working under the table, working with green cards. And then of course Korean adopted people have been deported and increased facing deportation. And I don't to be honest, I don't know if this is happening to I assume it's happening to other adopted people from other countries. I just know the Korean side, and it has been deeply traumatizing. Not only can you be deported and set back to a country that you left maybe when you were six weeks old or you know, three years old, and you don't you don't have any family or friends, you don't know the language, you don't have any money, you don't have any way of earning money. It is the ultimate betrayal.

23:37 And I can't imagine psychologically alone, what that would feel like to be so loved and celebrated as this little baby who comes over and it's all very sentimental, and you're being whitewashed and americanized, and like, you know, there's a story about you in the local newspaper. And then once you're adult, you're an adult and you've had a hard childhood and now you're on your own, and then you're gone. You know. It just says so much about who gets to belong. It says so much about identity, and like you say, like in this time of of what's happening with immigration and I sent detention centers, I think it's a really pertinent issue and I just I want to say. One more thing too, is that we often talk about adoption in the past tense, as if okay, things were really bad, But then you know, we created a lot more regulations, we signed some conventions and we're not going to go back. But you brought up wor V. Wade, and there are so many biological mothers who who know what happens when you don't have options. There's so many adopted people who know what happens, and people are scared, and people are actively work to try to warn others of Like this is how it begins, and of course inner country adoption begins too in moments of crisis, when

25:10 you know, when you have movements of people for refugees, you have genocide, you have climate migration, you have all of these things happening. And this is historically when powerful countries take advantage of the vulnerable and they separate families. And so that is part of my message too, is like, just because we've tamped things down for now, as you say, we know that if we don't stay vigilant that that can change. Yeah. Yeah, I don't even know what to say because all of that I know, right, I'm just like, oh, yes, chills I got chills and them. It also shocked me to learn that they didn't have citizenship because it reminds me because I think meeting and Carmen specifically as children of immigrant we know a lot of like DACA recipients or who were brought here but by their immigrant parents, and they would the same thing would happen where they were applying for colleges and they didn't know that they you know, weren't going to be able to go because they didn't have citizenship status. And so many like they're also facing deportations now, but so many of them, it's like it's different because they were brought with their families and they in many cases still know the language. But for all of them, like the Korean adoptees, they weren't adopted by Korean families.

26:33 They were adopted by people who. Had no interest I mean, I'm assuming, but had no interest in keeping their culture alive. They wanted to Americanize them, and so it is it just feels so much worse to know that they were facing like deportation to like especially a place that they just like they their connection to that place was severed, and it's just and they don't know, like their families back there. It's a lot. Yeah, that word severed, I think is great. That severed from Yeah, completely severed from your homeland and your language, your family. And then on that note too, a whole international and some of the other agencies who came up greater in South Korea committed mass fraud with adopted people's paperwork.

27:21 They changed the names of biological parents, or they left it length, They switched children, their identities, They purposely messed up birth dates and birthplaces, and so it has been this grueling task for people to try to reunite with their families. And sometimes they would reunite with who they thought was their biological parents, only to find out through DNA tests that they're not actually related, and so they just they had swapped paperwork with another child. And all of this was done to streamline adoption and keep it been fast as possible, but also it made it impossible or nearly impossible for biological families to track down their children and vice versa. It was like, as you said, it was just a complete severing. And so yeah, I would argue that it's I mean, obviously the lack of citizenship is bad all around, but I mean, adopted people have been writing in the news and on social media that they're encouraging everyone to carry their ideas around and they're just as aware of ice and watching out as as much as as other undocumented people.

28:43 And it was also just throughout the book, like whenever I was reading about, especially earlier on Harry Holt and the Wold Agency and the people that saw adoption through them earlier on in their earlier years, it was I guess heroine to to see how they never thought about the wellbeing of the children. They never thought about them as adults, and they kind of just saw them like as objects, And like I kind of remembered just now because I was it was just so shocking that they specifically wanted eight children to start off with, because they the age member of the whole family wanted a child, a Korean child, for themselves.

29:27 And then from there on, like you were talking about. How they would an adoptive parent would seek out like a certain child, but then would find out that child maybe died and they didn't sur ride the flight, and then they would just switch and grab another kid. And then I'm like, okay, so you were never connected you it. I'll just take another one like it was. It was. It was a heavy read, but I it was a lot, but it was it was important. But I also really appreciate at the end when you like talk about the perspective from adoptees and just how much more I guess information has come out and point of views from adoptive people about the bad side of adoption, because we often still now adoption is seen as.

30:20 This miracle, this light at the end of a tunnel. But I think you really drove home the point that adoption, whether it's domestic or international, it starts off with the like Christina's at a severance break, you know, And so I'm just rambling. I just have thoughts now completely, you know, I can say no and then thank you for your kind words too. But yeah, all of that was forrifying to uncover during research. It was horrifying to write about. And the whole goal was their full purpose and they stated this themselves, that it was not to really save the chill a career, was to say the souls of Korean children, and so they which is a narrative that still exists in evangelical and Baptist churches, is wanting to bring children from non Christian countries into Christian homes in order to convert them and raise them for God. And so yeah, there was just a dehumanizing aspect and that was also just something personal to the Holts too, where they really they were not seeing the humanity of people. But yeah, dehumanizing and the thing that you said too, where they had six biological children plus themselves, that's eight, we're each going to take a child. That sort of sentimentality existed in an adoption,

31:53 you know, for a long time, still arguably exists. It really like really erases the complexity not only of that you're separating families and taking children from their homelands, but also it imagines children to be that cute little picture and not taking on any of their trauma, assuming that it's sort of like this fresh clean slate, like it doesn't you know, you're just a baby, it doesn't matter what happened before, and like, yeah, it's just a deeply complex act that has historically been oversimplified to an extreme, and as you said, categorizes this act of rescue and charity and that children should be so grateful to have been able to grow up in America. And then the last point is that the Holts, which I write about, the Wholts were not even able to really raise those eight children that they adopted a lot of the biological dog where most of the biological daughters went to South Korea to help Harry expand the business. Bertha also became very involved, was working, you know, six seven days a week, and so it was almost as if they'd never really planned to raise them. And if you have small children, you know, just raising one can be magical but also

33:24 self obliterating at times exhausting. And so yeah, this very happy story was just not remotely the truthful what was happening. Yeah, Yeah, and this feels like a good place to stop, even though it's heavy. We talk about heavy things all the time, so our listeners are used to it. Yeah, but yeah, I don't know, I I love this kind of stuff, And it feels like kind of weird to say that it was probably one of the best books I've read all year among the life. Thank you so much. That is really that coming from you, That means so much to me than thank you so much. And if I can just say too, I'm a new fan of your podcast and I'm just so much just like then like sometimes things are happy, and I've like we found like love Island, and just like you to take a break. It's a weird juxtaposition to listen to your podcasts and then gonna love my se mental health, right, But I yeah, I'm such a fan and i admire both of you so much and I'm grateful that you had me on.

34:33 Thank you, no, thank you so much? And just really quick, where can listeners find your book and follow your work? Uh? So, you can find my book anywhere that you're going to buy books. It is currently out of stock on like bookshop, dot board, and Amazon, which I've been told is a good thing, and you can back order it and it will be in a week or something. But for now, you can also order through the press, which is the University Viba Press, or even better yet, you can order through your local bookstore, which is amazing. Perfect. Oh and then is there any any social media that people can follow you if you want to be found?

35:18 Yes, I am like not a great social media user, but I have an Instagram account. It's at page dot towers dot writer or people a lot of times write me through my website pagetowers dot com. Through my contact form, and I really do try to reply to most of the emails, and I'm just always happy to hear, whether it's criticism or whatever it is. Like, I always try to. Respond perfect, And we'll have all that information in the show notes. And thank you again for taking the time to come and tell us about your book. And all of that. Perfect. Thank you so much.

36:00 All right, that was our interview with Page again. Go get this book or wherever you get books. We have the bookshop link in the show notes and yeah, read it like we said in the right Now, drop what you're doing and passically pick up, walk out to the bookstore. Yes, and get independent local bookstore. None of this Born's and Noble shit. Now, I'm just kidding. Anywhere you can get your book. No, but really, yeah, it's such a timely important read that we've got all the things that we talk about in this podcast, it's in this book. So yeah. Other than that, we hope that this was one less Estoria Unknown for you. My Estoria Unknown is produced by Carmen and Christina, researched by Carmen and Christina, edited by Christina.

36:53 You can find sources for every episode atias unknown dot com and in our show notes. Creating the podcast has a lot of work, so if you want to help us out financially, you can do so by supporting us on Patreon at patreon dot com. Slashy Studios and own podcast