June 11, 2026

What They Stole with Paige Towers

What They Stole with Paige Towers
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What They Stole by Paige Towers blends together a true crime case from her hometown, a familicide, geopolitics, history, and so much more. The synopsis: In 1955, following the devastation of the Korean War, Bertha and Harry Holt made headlines for adopting eight Korean children. Driven by evangelical convictions and emboldened by a special act of Congress, the couple founded the Holt Adoption Program, which would facilitate the migration of tens of thousands of Korean children to the United States over the following decades.

The Sueppels were among the families profoundly shaped by the legacy of the Holt Adoption Program. To their suburban Iowa City community, Steven and Sheryl Sueppel were kind and charitable, humble yet magnetic—seemingly ideal candidates to adopt. But in 2008, when Steven found himself facing federal embezzlement and money laundering charges, he murdered Sheryl and their adopted children before ending his own life.

Paige Towers traces the interwoven histories of the Holts and the Sueppels, exploring the deeper, often hidden complexities of intercountry adoption: the ethical gray zones, the influences of religion and race, and the global inequalities that made such large—scale child migration possible. Meticulously researched and sensitive with its storytelling.

Carmen and Cristina were joined by Paige to talk about her new book.

Follow her work here https://www.paigetowers.com/

Get the book from the University of Iowa Press or wherever you get books


Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/historias-unknown--6253658/support.

WEBVTT

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Hey, everyone, This is Carmen and Christina and this is

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Ittoia's Unknown, a podcaster where we talk about Latin American history.

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Sometimes it's horrible and deals with heavy topics like racism, corruption,

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and genocide. But more than that, it's also about resistance,

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power and community. And today today we're not talking about

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Latin American history. Today we have a special guest author,

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Page Towers, and she's on to tell us about her

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new book. But for us a little bit about Page.

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Page Towers is a creative and freelance writer who earned

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a BA in political science from the University of Iowa

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and an MFA in creative nonfiction writing from Emerson College.

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Her writing has appeared in the World, She's Impost, The Guardian,

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and several other publications, and her second book, What They Stole,

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A Familicide Rooted in Inner Country Adoption, is out now

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from University of Iowa Press, and the book is a

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work of literary journalism investigating Bertha and Harry Holt, an

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evangelical couple who adopted eight children after the Korean War,

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told through lens of a familia side that happened in

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Iowa City, while also examining how raised religion, capitalism, and

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global inequalities still drive the inner country adoption in the

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street today. What an amazing book. Heavy heavy, It is

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very heavy, very heavy, but very important. Yes, as you'll

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find out why and what this is about in the episode.

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And unsurprising, Latin America does come up because as you know,

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we've done two episodes on both Chile and Guatemala and

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their the adoption, international adoption that went on there, and

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the systems are connected and so yeah, yeah, very very

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similar horrible situations. Yes, so it's it feels weird to say,

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but enjoy the episode.

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Also check out the book.

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I mean we're into dark, heavy topics here. No one

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will be surprised about that. But I want to say

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this has been one of my top books of the year,

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if not the top not I think the top nonfiction book.

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I'm trying to remember what else, what other nonfiction I've

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read this year, but for sure it's up there. It

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was infre reading, captivating, informative, so so important. Yes, yes,

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here everyone, we have a special guest today.

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And Page Towers and I am writer based in Bellingham

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and my second book just came out. It's called What

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They Stole a familicide rooted in inner country.

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Adoption, Yes, and what a fascinating book. What They Stole

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examines both the history of US adoption from Korea and

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the two thousand and eight familicide case of Stephen how

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do you pronounce his last name?

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Suple?

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Souple?

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Okay?

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I was wondering that the whole time is.

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Stephen Souple who killed his wife and four adopted children

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from Korea. Before we talk about Harry Hole and the

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whole agency, the dark and troubled history of US adoption

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in Korea, and how things are connected to Stephen Souple,

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We're interested to know what drew you to this topic.

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So I was originally drawn to this topic because my

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hometown is actually where this Familla side occurred. I'm originally

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from Iowa City, Iowa, and so I was a senior

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at the University of Iowa in two thousand and eight

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when this murder suicide happened. You know, iOS to be

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is like a fairly small, close net community, and so

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it was it was Yeah, as you can imagine, it

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was horrifying and shocking for the entire community. And I

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didn't know the superls personally, but I had like a

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hundred social connections to them and would see them around

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town sometimes. That said, it didn't really occur to me

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to think about the adoption side of the story until

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a year later two thousand and nine. You'll remember two

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thousand and eight, there was the economic fallout. I gave

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up my career plans because I didn't want to take

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on more debt, and I went to South Korea to

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teach English. And while I was there, I was like,

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why is this modern, like thriving country still sending children

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to the West for adoption? But it really again this question,

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It really didn't hit me until like twenty nineteen that

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I started googling and researching the case. Honestly, what happened

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was there was like a Reddit thread for adoptees, and

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I became obsessed and I was just reading as much

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as I could. I was clicking on all the links

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they were sharing, and pretty soon I was buying books

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written by adopted people and adoptive activists and academics, and

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then I started reading pro adoption literature just to understand,

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like what's happening here, to try to understand how this

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came to be. And so, I mean, honestly, within like

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two weeks of googling this case, I was like, I'm

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going to try to write this book, which it was ambitious. Yeah,

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so it took me like six years to do all

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the research and all the interviews. But yeah, so I

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knew right away I was at least going to.

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Try it would be read it.

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Yep, it would be ready.

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Yeah, and it makes sense, total sense.

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And it took that long because it's so there's just

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so much information and such a huge time span that

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you explored. Can you tell us about Harry Holt his

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audacity and how his evangelical beliefs played a role in

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the way he developed his adoption practice. I guess those

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things affected adoption as a whole in general too.

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Right, So, Harry and birth of Holt are actually a

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Midwestern couple of Retho went to University of Iowa. Actually

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they were first cousins. They were part of this very

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conservative steck called the Plymouth Brethren, often mistaken for Midde

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Night's extremely biblically literal born again Christian would be like

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the closest proximity. During the Great Depression, they moved to

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Oregon and they became very, very wealthy through logging and

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farming and building businesses, and as you stated, they became

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evangelical born again Christians, but they did not have any

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experience in child welfare whatsoever. Harry, he had like an

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eighth grade education, which is fine. He was farming. But

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what happened was in nineteen fifty four there was a

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missionary that came back from South Korea, went to Eugene

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organ and put on this big presentation about the multi

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racial children in South Korea. And these were children that

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were fathered by US soldiers born to Korean women. And

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this was sort of the first time obviously that this

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has happened on the Korean peninsula, and in general there

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was also from the Korean War which had ended in

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nineteen fifty three. It was also mass displacement and a

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huge lack of social services, poverty, a family separation. So

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the Holts, after this presentation, they very quickly felt called

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by God to go adopt eight multiracial children. They didn't

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this was not a legal thing at the time. It

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was only legal to adopt up to two children, unless

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that meant splitting up multiple siblings. But Harry went to Korea.

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He searched through orphanages and he picked out eight children.

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He received support from senators back home and they wrote

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him a special act in Congress, and he flew back

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home in nineteen fifty five with these eight children, and

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it was a huge national media event, like Life magazine,

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book magazine everywhere across the country covered this event. And

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with all this media publicity, suddenly, yes, they've launched a

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very primitive adoption agency. And what my book really focuses

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on is the complete lack of regulation, and they're inexperience.

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So I think what people don't know about the whole

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is that there was no screening of adoptive families, There

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was no background checks. What was required of families is

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that they'd be born again Christians. And so that is

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our early history of inner country adoption from South Korea,

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which was really the first country to really explode this industry.

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And as you can imagine, as I wrote in the book,

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very quickly things start to fall apart, and a lot

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of these children did not thrive and did not survive

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their childhoods. And I forget what you asked me. From there,

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I feel like always I can talk about because it

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is so wild and radical, I can just focus on

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nineteen fifty five for other forever. But basically what happens

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after that, just like the quick story, is that the

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Wholts start bringing children over on what they call babylifts.

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So instead of letting children recuperate and gain health in

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South Korea, or join a foster family, or help them

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stay with their biological families, or have domestic go through

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a domestic adoption process, instead the children are placed on

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these Corgo planes one hundred out of time, some of

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them only a couple of weeks old, five six pounds,

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some of them tuberculosis, pneumonia, all sorts of ailments, and

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as you can imagine, some of the kids don't survive

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that flight. Those flights and people would pick up their

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children's site unseen in American airports, and that system lasted

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for decades and expanded in numbers that were huge by

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like the nineteen eighties, had become this very competitive capitalistic industry.

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And then as we know it also they took this

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model from South Korea and applied it to and other

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mostly post colonial, non Christian majority countries.

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It was it was so frustrating to first, too.

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Well and like infuriating honestly, first I couldn't believe how

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the whole government based not the whole government, but you

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know what I mean, like they made a whole they

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changed the law for him to be able to do this,

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and I wasn't shocked, but at the same time, I

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was like, I can't, I couldn't believe it. And it

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was like it was being after thing that because there

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were standards being set at the time about adoption and

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there was child wild for professionals because mind you, like

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things like this had already happened here right like when

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I can't remember the year, but the Indian Child Wolf

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Act was established because of situations like this where why

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evangelical Christian families, you know, felt that children were better

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off with white families and so there was like standards

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being adopted and being like put in place, and they

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tried to talk to Harry about it, and he just

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felt like he knew better.

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Right. Yeah, they were a very anti government couple, very paranoid,

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very conspiracy theory based. And I think I'm so glad

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you brought that up because I feel like they've been

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credited as like the pioneers of inter country adoption, which

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this is a term that actually used as at like

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you know, a celebratory thing, a super problematic and horrible,

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but also they they weren't. Inter country adoption did exist,

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especially after World War Two, and again there was like

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mass displacement of children and family separation, but like you said,

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there were regulations, there was screening, there were social workers involved,

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there was attempts at family reunification, and so like what

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the whole stint was so highly unorthodox and radical, and

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then obviously it changed.

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Everything wild inappropriately wild. Imperialism and racism were major influences

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in the way that international adoption developed in Korea, both

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from the US and Korea. Can you tell us about

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the authoritarian Korean government and their role in creating this

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system of international adoption?

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Sure? So, I think what people need to remember is

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that South Korea was a colonized country after World War Two.

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They had just escaped the brutal colonization by Japan. And

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so you have, without like going to deep into it,

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you have the Korean War, where you have North Korea

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is propped up by the Soviet Union in China and

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they obviously have a communist government, and then you have

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South Korea, which the US very quickly joins the war

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and it's a horrible brutal war with mass civilian death,

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and then by the end of it, everybody ends up

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at the same line they started from the what's the

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word the d m Z I'm always afraid. And so

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the US has a leader propped up, a man, a

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Christian man who went to Princeton, Sigmund Ri, and his

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focus was it's it's it's hard to say, and it's

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complicated that the country need to read the building. But

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there was no funds going to social services whatsoever. Instead,

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there was just always sort of this focus on the

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looming threat of communism, and so there was a massive

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military build up. You also have this government that's very

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focus on like a racial purity is the propaganda that's happening,

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and so right away having multiracial children and the country

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really challenges this this new line that they've established. And

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it also of course deals with with misogyny because you

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have all of these women in camp towns who are

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having sex with you as soldiers, and you're in some

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European soldiers it's to somehow survive to make a living,

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and so the Korean government really wanted to just rid

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the country of these children in order to solve this

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00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:05.000
perceived social issue. And at the same time, of course,

229
00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:07.639
like we know that it's all about money too. They

230
00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:12.159
did not have to put funds that were needed to

231
00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:16.879
support women, girls and women in camptowns. They didn't have

232
00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:20.919
to support you know, they didn't have to make room

233
00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:23.559
for child care, they didn't have to establish a foster

234
00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.759
care system of any kind. And so like when you

235
00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:33.080
have this man Harry Fold coming in and allegedly passing

236
00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:35.840
out a lot of money for these children and the

237
00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:39.879
you know, white American families back home arcs you know,

238
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:42.879
more than happy to pay whatever fee to bring home

239
00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:48.480
the children and very quickly like against this pipeline of children.

240
00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.679
And I should say too that in America, the most

241
00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:55.840
you know, because of the publicity that the US media

242
00:16:55.879 --> 00:17:00.320
is drowning up, the child that was most culturally focused

243
00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:03.200
on is the Korean child who's been whitened by their

244
00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:09.279
American father. In Korea, you have the government wanting to

245
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make sure that they are adopting out children who were

246
00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:19.839
fathered by black men. This most challenges their racial purity theories.

247
00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:24.319
And so it just was like the perfect storm and

248
00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.839
Harry Will could not have done this, of course, without

249
00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:31.480
the support of the Korean government and the kind of

250
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:34.640
behind the scenes support and lack of regulation of the

251
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:35.440
US government.

252
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.640
Yeah, yeah, definitely describing it as a perfect storm. It's

253
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:43.160
literally all thinking right before you said it. And it

254
00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:46.119
sounds so similar to what happen in so many other

255
00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:48.319
countries as well. And you wrote about it like a

256
00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.160
little bit in the book too, like in Guatemala after

257
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.119
the war, and we've talked about in some of our

258
00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:58.119
podcast episodes. I think about Chile, we talked about Christina

259
00:17:58.160 --> 00:17:59.319
Ramle and Guatemala.

260
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:01.440
You've done you did them?

261
00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:05.279
Oh yeah, it was me And yeah, it's so similar

262
00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:09.160
where the authoritarian government instead of well I mean it's

263
00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:11.000
not their government, so what do you expect, but like

264
00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:14.119
they they in order to solve this problem, like I

265
00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:16.160
think it was Chillain that instance, where they were like, oh,

266
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:19.000
let's get rid of poverty, and their way of doing

267
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:22.400
that was getting rid of all the impoverished children, and

268
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:24.480
it was it was just so similar.

269
00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:26.799
It like created a black market of.

270
00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:31.079
International adoption where they had like private attorneys that were

271
00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:35.240
acting as I forget the word, but basically making these

272
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.920
adoptions happen. And they were like, yeah, they were stealing

273
00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.319
in some instances, like children from the mother's arms, and

274
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:45.240
I don't know, it just it's just so hard to

275
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.039
like know, like things like that happened. But when I

276
00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.200
was reading the book and it talked about like women

277
00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:56.160
being pressured or hiding from Harry and he's I'm like,

278
00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:58.279
if people, if people are hiding from you, you still

279
00:18:58.279 --> 00:18:59.720
think you're doing the right thing.

280
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:01.640
Yeah, he's a poor old savior.

281
00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:06.599
Yeah, And it was a lot, you know, like.

282
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:11.480
The amount of ego and paternalism and it's like a

283
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:16.920
sense of Western and Christian exceptionalism that you can take

284
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:21.400
a baby from its mother and feel that you are

285
00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:27.440
like bestowed by God to do this is incredible. But yeah,

286
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:31.119
I mean the systems that you're talking about that I

287
00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:35.960
would argue that anytime the inner country adoption a follows

288
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:40.839
these historic lines of colonialism and b is a private

289
00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:46.200
a private industry where cash is exchanged, it's going to

290
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:51.640
lead to bribery and coercion and kidnapping and all of

291
00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:57.079
these horrific things that you've saw in Latin America especially,

292
00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:01.039
but definitely Korea and their places as well.

293
00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:05.720
Yeah, And it feels like such a timely book because

294
00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:09.400
of the way that things are going in our country,

295
00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:17.160
and we're seeing so many things that can lead to

296
00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:20.960
instances like this of coorse adoption, right.

297
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:21.599
With Roe v.

298
00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:25.960
Wade and what happened there, And there were just yeah,

299
00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:30.279
there were so many themes I guess, like we're talking

300
00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:35.519
like reproductive, like coercion, like lack of options for women,

301
00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:38.720
and so many things that feed into a system like this.

302
00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:43.640
But something that I hadn't thought about before, I guess.

303
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:47.599
I guess I had just assumed that internationally adopted children

304
00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.759
receive citizenship here when they're adopted by parents from the

305
00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.440
United States. I had never I never thought it would

306
00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:00.240
be different or anything. And it feels timely too because

307
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:04.319
of what's going on with immigration more intensely now too.

308
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.680
But can you share about some of the experiences of

309
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:11.279
the Korean adoptees that you wrote around the book pertaining

310
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:13.920
to like citizenship and things like that.

311
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:19.240
Right, So, it was not until year two thousand that

312
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:26.599
international inner country adopt adoptees receive citizen UO citizenship upon

313
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:33.880
arriving on American soil. So I think there are around

314
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:37.079
maybe eighteen thousand or a little more than that of

315
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:43.119
Korean adopted people who do not have citizenship still. And

316
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:48.279
what happened was in two thousand they changed policy so

317
00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:51.880
that in our country, adoptees receive citizenship, but they did

318
00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:55.960
not go retroactively by day I mean Republicans, sorry, they

319
00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.000
did not allow to retroactively go back and grant citizens

320
00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.920
ship to those babies, toddlers, children who had been brought

321
00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:09.079
to the United States against their will. And so a

322
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:14.200
lot of adopted people have written and talked about that

323
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:19.119
their families. I think I think their families largely either

324
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:22.839
didn't know or did not understand how to navigate the

325
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.759
very complex US immigration system. Sometimes it was an act

326
00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:32.200
of like purposeful political abuse. But whatever happened when these

327
00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:37.640
children reach eighteen and they're trying to applied for you know,

328
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:43.000
like a college loan or a passport, anything anything that

329
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:47.319
would require citizen citizenship, it's just this shocking finding out like, hey,

330
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:50.359
you are not a citizen. And so people have been

331
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:55.160
working under the table, working with green cards. And then

332
00:22:55.200 --> 00:23:00.000
of course Korean adopted people have been deported and increased

333
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:06.279
facing deportation. And I don't to be honest, I don't

334
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:09.599
know if this is happening to I assume it's happening

335
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:13.519
to other adopted people from other countries. I just know

336
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:18.480
the Korean side, and it has been deeply traumatizing. Not

337
00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:20.960
only can you be deported and set back to a

338
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.720
country that you left maybe when you were six weeks

339
00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:26.440
old or you know, three years old, and you don't

340
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.039
you don't have any family or friends, you don't know

341
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:31.559
the language, you don't have any money, you don't have

342
00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:36.240
any way of earning money. It is the ultimate betrayal.

343
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:41.400
And I can't imagine psychologically alone, what that would feel

344
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:46.240
like to be so loved and celebrated as this little

345
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.960
baby who comes over and it's all very sentimental, and

346
00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:53.480
you're being whitewashed and americanized, and like, you know, there's

347
00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:57.359
a story about you in the local newspaper. And then

348
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:00.359
once you're adult, you're an adult and you've had a

349
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:02.400
hard childhood and now you're on your own, and then

350
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:05.599
you're gone. You know. It just says so much about

351
00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:09.359
who gets to belong. It says so much about identity,

352
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:15.960
and like you say, like in this time of of

353
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:20.279
what's happening with immigration and I sent detention centers, I

354
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:23.960
think it's a really pertinent issue and I just I

355
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:26.799
want to say. One more thing too, is that we

356
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:32.720
often talk about adoption in the past tense, as if okay,

357
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:36.880
things were really bad, But then you know, we created

358
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:41.960
a lot more regulations, we signed some conventions and we're

359
00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:44.519
not going to go back. But you brought up wor V. Wade,

360
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:50.680
and there are so many biological mothers who who know

361
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:53.720
what happens when you don't have options. There's so many

362
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:58.440
adopted people who know what happens, and people are scared,

363
00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:03.039
and people are actively work to try to warn others

364
00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:06.880
of Like this is how it begins, and of course

365
00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:10.480
inner country adoption begins too in moments of crisis, when

366
00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:15.119
you know, when you have movements of people for refugees,

367
00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:18.640
you have genocide, you have climate migration, you have all

368
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:22.200
of these things happening. And this is historically when powerful

369
00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:26.839
countries take advantage of the vulnerable and they separate families.

370
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:31.559
And so that is part of my message too, is like,

371
00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:34.599
just because we've tamped things down for now, as you say,

372
00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:36.960
we know that if we don't stay vigilant that that

373
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:37.640
can change.

374
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:39.599
Yeah.

375
00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:41.359
Yeah, I don't even know what to say because all

376
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.440
of that I know, right, I'm just like, oh, yes,

377
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.920
chills I got chills and them. It also shocked me

378
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:52.880
to learn that they didn't have citizenship because it reminds

379
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:57.039
me because I think meeting and Carmen specifically as children

380
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:01.319
of immigrant we know a lot of like DACA recipients

381
00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:05.359
or who were brought here but by their immigrant parents,

382
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:08.079
and they would the same thing would happen where they

383
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:12.359
were applying for colleges and they didn't know that they

384
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.359
you know, weren't going to be able to go because

385
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:18.000
they didn't have citizenship status. And so many like they're

386
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:21.119
also facing deportations now, but so many of them, it's

387
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:23.960
like it's different because they were brought with their families

388
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:27.480
and they in many cases still know the language. But

389
00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:31.440
for all of them, like the Korean adoptees, they weren't

390
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:33.599
adopted by Korean families.

391
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:36.440
They were adopted by people who.

392
00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:38.319
Had no interest I mean, I'm assuming, but had no

393
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:42.160
interest in keeping their culture alive. They wanted to Americanize them,

394
00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:44.960
and so it is it just feels so much worse

395
00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:49.359
to know that they were facing like deportation to like

396
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:53.240
especially a place that they just like they their connection

397
00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:55.720
to that place was severed, and it's just and they

398
00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:58.279
don't know, like their families back there.

399
00:26:58.359 --> 00:26:58.920
It's a lot.

400
00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:02.960
Yeah, that word severed, I think is great. That severed

401
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:07.400
from Yeah, completely severed from your homeland and your language,

402
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:10.599
your family. And then on that note too, a whole

403
00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:14.799
international and some of the other agencies who came up

404
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:20.680
greater in South Korea committed mass fraud with adopted people's paperwork.

405
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:25.079
They changed the names of biological parents, or they left

406
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:33.200
it length, They switched children, their identities, They purposely messed

407
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:37.200
up birth dates and birthplaces, and so it has been

408
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.480
this grueling task for people to try to reunite with

409
00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:45.160
their families. And sometimes they would reunite with who they

410
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:47.839
thought was their biological parents, only to find out through

411
00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:50.880
DNA tests that they're not actually related, and so they

412
00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:55.759
just they had swapped paperwork with another child. And all

413
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:59.839
of this was done to streamline adoption and keep it

414
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:04.039
been fast as possible, but also it made it impossible

415
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:07.440
or nearly impossible for biological families to track down their

416
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:10.319
children and vice versa. It was like, as you said,

417
00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:15.880
it was just a complete severing. And so yeah, I

418
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:21.720
would argue that it's I mean, obviously the lack of

419
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:26.000
citizenship is bad all around, but I mean, adopted people

420
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:29.319
have been writing in the news and on social media

421
00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:33.440
that they're encouraging everyone to carry their ideas around and

422
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:37.680
they're just as aware of ice and watching out as

423
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:41.480
as much as as other undocumented people.

424
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.799
And it was also just throughout the book, like whenever

425
00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:50.279
I was reading about, especially earlier on Harry Holt and

426
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:53.519
the Wold Agency and the people that saw adoption through

427
00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:58.960
them earlier on in their earlier years, it was I

428
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:03.400
guess heroine to to see how they never thought about

429
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:07.759
the wellbeing of the children. They never thought about them

430
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:10.480
as adults, and they kind of just saw them like

431
00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:14.400
as objects, And like I kind of remembered just now

432
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.160
because I was it was just so shocking that they

433
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:21.359
specifically wanted eight children to start off with, because they

434
00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:24.920
the age member of the whole family wanted a child,

435
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:26.680
a Korean child, for themselves.

436
00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:30.480
And then from there on, like you were talking about.

437
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:34.680
How they would an adoptive parent would seek out like

438
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:36.640
a certain child, but then would find out that child

439
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:39.480
maybe died and they didn't sur ride the flight, and

440
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:42.200
then they would just switch and grab another kid. And

441
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:45.799
then I'm like, okay, so you were never connected you it.

442
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:47.559
I'll just take another one like it was.

443
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:48.440
It was.

444
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:52.119
It was a heavy read, but I it was a lot,

445
00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:58.400
but it was it was important. But I also really

446
00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:01.480
appreciate at the end when you like talk about the

447
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:04.359
perspective from adoptees and just how much more I guess

448
00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:07.519
information has come out and point of views from adoptive

449
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:15.599
people about the bad side of adoption, because we often

450
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:19.880
still now adoption is seen as.

451
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:23.440
This miracle, this light at the end of a tunnel.

452
00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:26.319
But I think you really drove home the point that adoption,

453
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:30.400
whether it's domestic or international, it starts off with the

454
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:35.440
like Christina's at a severance break, you know, And so I'm

455
00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:35.960
just rambling.

456
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:40.440
I just have thoughts now completely, you know, I can

457
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:43.279
say no and then thank you for your kind words too.

458
00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:46.880
But yeah, all of that was forrifying to uncover during research.

459
00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:51.559
It was horrifying to write about. And the whole goal

460
00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:56.839
was their full purpose and they stated this themselves, that

461
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.640
it was not to really save the chill a career,

462
00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:04.480
was to say the souls of Korean children, and so

463
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:11.440
they which is a narrative that still exists in evangelical

464
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:16.480
and Baptist churches, is wanting to bring children from non

465
00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:20.559
Christian countries into Christian homes in order to convert them

466
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:24.319
and raise them for God. And so yeah, there was

467
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:28.599
just a dehumanizing aspect and that was also just something

468
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:32.000
personal to the Holts too, where they really they were

469
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:38.680
not seeing the humanity of people. But yeah, dehumanizing and

470
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:44.160
the thing that you said too, where they had six

471
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:47.480
biological children plus themselves, that's eight, we're each going to

472
00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:52.839
take a child. That sort of sentimentality existed in an adoption,

473
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:58.359
you know, for a long time, still arguably exists. It

474
00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:03.519
really like really erases the complexity not only of that

475
00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:08.480
you're separating families and taking children from their homelands, but

476
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:14.359
also it imagines children to be that cute little picture

477
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:17.880
and not taking on any of their trauma, assuming that

478
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:22.400
it's sort of like this fresh clean slate, like it

479
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:24.440
doesn't you know, you're just a baby, it doesn't matter

480
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:31.480
what happened before, and like, yeah, it's just a deeply

481
00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:36.759
complex act that has historically been oversimplified to an extreme,

482
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:41.240
and as you said, categorizes this act of rescue and

483
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:45.200
charity and that children should be so grateful to have

484
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:49.319
been able to grow up in America. And then the

485
00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:52.039
last point is that the Holts, which I write about,

486
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:55.680
the Wholts were not even able to really raise those

487
00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:59.720
eight children that they adopted a lot of the biological

488
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:02.599
dog where most of the biological daughters went to South

489
00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:07.799
Korea to help Harry expand the business. Bertha also became

490
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:12.079
very involved, was working, you know, six seven days a week,

491
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:14.240
and so it was almost as if they'd never really

492
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:18.279
planned to raise them. And if you have small children,

493
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:24.200
you know, just raising one can be magical but also

494
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:29.440
self obliterating at times exhausting. And so yeah, this very

495
00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:34.079
happy story was just not remotely the truthful what was happening.

496
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:39.519
Yeah, Yeah, and this feels like a good place to stop,

497
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:41.240
even though it's heavy. We talk about heavy things all

498
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:47.240
the time, so our listeners are used to it. Yeah,

499
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:51.079
but yeah, I don't know, I I love this kind

500
00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:52.440
of stuff, And it feels like kind of weird to

501
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:54.200
say that it was probably one of the best books

502
00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:56.000
I've read all year among the life.

503
00:33:56.119 --> 00:33:58.680
Thank you so much. That is really that coming from you,

504
00:33:58.759 --> 00:34:00.759
That means so much to me than thank you so much.

505
00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:05.240
And if I can just say too, I'm a new

506
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:10.440
fan of your podcast and I'm just so much just

507
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:15.559
like then like sometimes things are happy, and I've like

508
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:18.920
we found like love Island, and just like you to

509
00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:22.320
take a break. It's a weird juxtaposition to listen to

510
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:25.920
your podcasts and then gonna love my se mental health, right,

511
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:29.920
But I yeah, I'm such a fan and i admire

512
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:32.480
both of you so much and I'm grateful that you

513
00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:33.119
had me on.

514
00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:38.800
Thank you, no, thank you so much? And just really quick,

515
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:43.239
where can listeners find your book and follow your work?

516
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:48.639
Uh? So, you can find my book anywhere that you're

517
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:53.400
going to buy books. It is currently out of stock

518
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:56.760
on like bookshop, dot board, and Amazon, which I've been

519
00:34:56.760 --> 00:34:59.239
told is a good thing, and you can back order

520
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:01.480
it and it will be in a week or something.

521
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:05.159
But for now, you can also order through the press,

522
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:07.719
which is the University Viba Press, or even better yet,

523
00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:10.880
you can order through your local bookstore, which is amazing.

524
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:12.599
Perfect.

525
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.920
Oh and then is there any any social media that

526
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:18.239
people can follow you if you want to be found?

527
00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:22.119
Yes, I am like not a great social media user,

528
00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:25.880
but I have an Instagram account. It's at page dot

529
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:30.559
towers dot writer or people a lot of times write

530
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:34.639
me through my website pagetowers dot com. Through my contact form,

531
00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:36.960
and I really do try to reply to most of

532
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:39.400
the emails, and I'm just always happy to hear, whether

533
00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:43.400
it's criticism or whatever it is. Like, I always try to.

534
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:47.360
Respond perfect, And we'll have all that information in the

535
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:50.880
show notes. And thank you again for taking the time

536
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:53.760
to come and tell us about your book.

537
00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:54.119
And all of that.

538
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:55.880
Perfect. Thank you so much.

539
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:06.119
All right, that was our interview with Page again. Go

540
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:09.280
get this book or wherever you get books. We have the

541
00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:13.719
bookshop link in the show notes and yeah, read it

542
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:16.800
like we said in the right Now, drop what you're

543
00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:21.239
doing and passically pick up, walk out to the bookstore. Yes,

544
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:23.440
and get independent local bookstore. None of this Born's and

545
00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:26.840
Noble shit. Now, I'm just kidding. Anywhere you can get

546
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:31.000
your book. No, but really, yeah, it's such a timely

547
00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:34.239
important read that we've got all the things that we

548
00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:37.840
talk about in this podcast, it's in this book.

549
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:38.360
So yeah.

550
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:40.639
Other than that, we hope that this was one less

551
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:49.440
Estoria Unknown for you. My Estoria Unknown is produced by

552
00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:53.239
Carmen and Christina, researched by Carmen and Christina, edited by Christina.

553
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:56.360
You can find sources for every episode atias unknown dot

554
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:59.360
com and in our show notes. Creating the podcast has

555
00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:00.519
a lot of work, so if you want to help

556
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:03.280
us out financially, you can do so by supporting us

557
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:06.880
on Patreon at patreon dot com. Slashy Studios and own

558
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:07.320
podcast