May 28, 2026

He Was Imprisoned in the National Stadium for Eleven Days with Dr. Joseph Doherty

He Was Imprisoned in the National Stadium for Eleven Days with Dr. Joseph Doherty
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Joseph Doherty fulfilled a childhood dream when, after graduating high school and joining Maryknoll, a Catholic missionary society, he was assigned to work in Chile. He was present for the coup, in 1973, when the military overthrew the government of President Salvador Allende. Arrested by DINA, the secret police, he was imprisoned in the National Stadium for eleven days before being expelled from the country. CHILE: EMBERS OF THE PAST is the story of what took place before and during his expulsion as well as his time in El Salvador, where he was reassigned. His book also recounts, how in 2001 he accompanied Joyce Horman, widow of Charles Horman, whom the Chilean military executed, and returned to Chile to testify against various military officials. Leaving Maryknoll in 1975 he obtained his doctorate in psychology. He returns to visit his friends in Chile as often as he can.

Carmen and Cristina were joined by Dr. Joseph Doherty. He discussed his book, as well as what it was like to live through the coup and the National Stadium.

Get the book here: https://a.co/d/09FtCrDQ

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WEBVTT

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Hey, everyone, This is Carmen and Christina and this is

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The Studs, a podcast where we talked about Latin American history.

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Sometimes it's horrible and deals with type topics like racism,

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corruption and genocide, but more than that, it's also about resistance,

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power and community. And today we have a special treat.

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What a treat of an episode? This was? It was heavy,

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it was Yeah. We had the honor and pleasure speaking

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with doctor Joe Doherty and he was an eyewitness to

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the nineteen seventy three corpedestalo in Chile and was picked

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up by Dina the secret police and prisoned in the

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Istalio Nasuna for eleven days, and last year he discovered

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his handwritten notes from that time, which formed the basis

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of his book Chile Members of the Past, and his

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testimony or testimonial was accepted by El Museo de la

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Memoria ILOs Dichosumanos in Santiago or the Museum of Memory

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and Human Rights in San Diego, Chile for their own archives.

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In his book, he talks about his experiences leading up

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to the Gorpe and afterwards when he was expelled from Chile,

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and he also relates other experiences for example, his experience

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with Padre Miguel Escoto, who somebody you might know became

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the Foreign Minister of the Sandinistans. I didn't know that actually,

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and we thought this would be an even more special

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episode after we did our five part series on Chile

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a year maybe two years ago now, I think like

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two years ago. Yeah, So everything that doctor Joe is

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talking about in the episode, it will ring bells if

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you listen to those episodes. And if you didn't or

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have you been, Yeah, if you haven't listened, and go

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back and listen, because it is helpful to have We

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talk about it here. But obviously we didn't go into details.

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So if you want more details on some of the

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things that Joe talked about, then you can check those

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episodes out, or you can also read this book. Yeah,

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but both. Yeah, I'm definitely getting the book. Yeah, I

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already have it. I'm hoping to start reading it soon. Yes,

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I just you know when books pile up. Yeah, this

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was so timely for me because I just finished listening

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to and I mentioned a little bit in the episode,

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but I just got done listening to the House of

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the Spirits by Isabel and it's it sort of set

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in that time towards the middle and the end of

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the book, but also because it follows three generations of

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a family, so it's like the time span of like

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about one hundred years, so we really see the oligarchs

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and the rich people being in power right and the

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shift changing political lee throughout we read about and listen

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about those political ships, people becoming more leftists. Allende the

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character based on Allende being elected into government, when he

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first started reaching out to the peasants and writing on

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his trains how he used to do and up to

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the coup. Afterwards, it's just herowing, just like speaking to

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Joe with heroine, but important, so important, so important for

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everyone to hear what he went through there and that's

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when experience and again thousands were tortured in these yeah,

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concentration camps during the Pinochet regime slash dictatorship. So yeah,

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hi everyone, This is Carmen and Christina and we have

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a special guest today.

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Hello. My name is Joe Gardi, and I'm the author

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of a book called Chile Embers of the Past, which

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details my my time at Chili, particularly around the coup

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of nineteen seventy three, in which the military over two

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of the elected government of salvad Oriende, and also the

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time that I spent as a president in the National

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Stafty in Santia and then was expelled from the country.

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It also includes my return to the country. In two

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thousand and one, I accompanied Joyce Hermit Horman, who is

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the widow of Charles woman who was executed by the

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Chilean military nineteen seventy three, to testify against various military officers.

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So much and just that introduction, and so your book

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is about your experiences before the coup, the Gold Palestado,

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and then when you were picked up by the secret police.

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As you just said, but can you tell us what

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brought you to Chile in the first place.

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When I was in the seventh grade, which means I

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was probably about thirteen years of age, the English teacher

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gave us an assignment to write page yesterday of what

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we want to do when we were adults, and I

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wrote that I was going to go to Chile. And

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it always has been a mystery to me why I

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said that, because in the town that I grew up in,

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it was completely white. There were no Hispanics, no Asians,

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no blacks. And someone suggested that maybe I got the

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idea from a geography class, But if that's the case,

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I don't remember. But I've always had this desire to

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go to Chile. And when I graduated high school, I

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joined a Catholic organization called mary No, which is a

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missionary organization, and the day assigned me to Chile, which

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I was absolutely elated. And that's how I came to

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go to Chile.

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You were like perfect And what was it like during

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the Allenda years?

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Well, first of all, when he was elected. The election

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was in September of nineteen seventy and he didn't get

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the majority of the votes, which according to Chilean law,

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he had to be approved by Calm So the several

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months from the time the election took place, at the

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time Congress met to either approve him was the president

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or not, it was a very tension filled period of time.

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It's like everyone was in limbo. Were they going to

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do it or not do it? And they didn't do it?

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What was going to happen? But they did. They approved

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him as president and he assumed power. But right away

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that the country was polarized. The people who were afraid

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of quote unquote socialism, had a hard time with accepting

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the fact that India had been elected president. And then

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of course the United States didn't like it either and

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they played a huge role in his overthrow. In the

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book I talk about this Miguel Descoto. Miguel Descoto was

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a Marito priest. He was he was born in Hollywood,

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but his father was very wealthy. He was in an

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abass to Japan and the United statesment. That's the most

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of the dictator. Miguel had lual citizenship and he was

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a dage. In nineteen sixty one, went to Columbia University

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to a degree in journalism. It was assigned to Chile,

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and he was a very powerful force in Eduard no

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Frey becoming president in nineteen sixty four. Frey ran against

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the Indian and the Scoto and Frey labeled the Indy

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a communist threat. Later, much later, Miguel supposedly had this

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conversion and he ended up being the foreign minister for

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the Sandinista government, which is a complete flip, right complete flip.

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I wrote an article critical of him for Marinal Publication,

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and it was very interesting to me. Responses that I got,

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which were from class basicists who were in the seminary

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with Miguel, and they said that even in the seminary

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as a seminary before he was a gained Miguel was

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on the payroll of the CIA, that he would make

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frequent trips to Washington, and it's been ruined and I'm

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sure it's true. Then when Miguel was assigned to Chile

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and began working with Frey in the campaign, that three

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hundred thousand dollars was funneled to the Frank campaign through Miguel.

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I really believe that that's why what happened.

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It's very interesting the role of the Catholic Church during

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the coup and like the I and the years, because

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like when you look at other Latin American countries, a

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lot of the Catholic churches, like say Talbaldor, they were

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practicing liberation theology and they themselves were labeled as communists.

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But in Chile it seemed to be the opposite, with

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like the Catholics aligning or the Catholic Church as an

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organization aligning with the opposite of Allende, so like aligning

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with Pinochet. So it's just it's interesting to see the differences.

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Oh yeah, very much. Actually in Latin American liberation theology

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didn't take a place until after several years after a

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Yendi had been overthrown. But when I got to Chile

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in March of nineteen seventy there were probably forty five

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marinal priestian brothers in the country when when he was overthrown,

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thirty nine members of the congregation supported Pinocche, hoping in

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there's just a handful of us that didn't do that.

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And can you share with us about the day of

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the coup, like where were you?

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Sure?

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Sounds scary to read about it.

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Yeah, yeah, well, I I had stayed up late writing letters.

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Of course, we shouldn't have cell phones. We didn't have

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the internet in nineteen seventy three. And I came down

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the stairs and as I came down, the housekeeper had

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the TV blasting, and I can see that there was

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a military officer and from what I could make out,

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he was reading names off. And I went into the

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kitchen and she was running back and forth playing pots

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and pans, screaming at the top of her lungs that

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don't be stubborn, don't be stubborn. Because the military had

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given a n D until eleven o'clock that morning to

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be out of the money at the presidential palace, and

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he wasn't about to do that. In the middle of

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this chaos, the phone raiser was a good friend of mine,

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telling me that her brothers had seen her brother had

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seen tanks around the money that early that morning, so

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I knew a coup was in progress. And overnight, this

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is I mean overnight, people became paranoid, absolutely paranoid. They

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began hiding literature, began burning it, and began hiding into

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the tiles of the moves of their homes. Because the

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main message of the military was that they they were

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liberating Chile from communism, and it was almost impossible for

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anyone to visit a kiosk in Santiago or any other part

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of the country and buy something that they wouldn't consider

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to be communistic. So the atmosphere was completely changed. And

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of course there was the curfew. And then, as I

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mentioned the book, a neighbor of ours, a woman proppingly

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in the early thirties, set me open the front door

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of her house and were standing there and were shot

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to that by one of the soldiers.

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Wow.

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And then where I lived, front of the plaza, and

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there was apartment buildings on the other side of the

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plaza and opened the window on the second floor of

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the apartment building and he was machined onto death. So

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the things like that were happening that people were very

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much aware of, which was causing an incredible fright in terror. Terror.

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And then as I mentioned, there was I was getting

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phone calls from friends telling me what's happening, what was

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happening where they were. One of the stories was that

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a group of kind of midheitos had entered a pueblas

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a neighborhood and the people poor neighborhood, and the people

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had taken him from the bus and hung them from

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lat post. But I could never really find out if

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that was true or not. But there were stories going

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around that added to the feeling of terror because you

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really didn't know what was going to happen. The military

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had taken complete control of all of the communications, and

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that that kind of continued.

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You know, I mean it just yeah, yeah, that's so scary.

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But it's like it's the kind of environment that they

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need to foster to get, you know, people to don't

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I don't remember if it was the same in Chile

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as it was like and inside of attle later, but

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where people had like hotlines where they were like, oh

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so and so is a communist and then like they

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would come, the military or the intelligence officers, like they

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would come and take those people away, and then who

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knows what would happen. Like in this case, they had

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all those set up, I mean constitution camps. Really, I

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don't know what else they were like those locations. So

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they need that environment of fear to they need to

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maintain it.

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Oh absolutely, I mean that happened in Chile as well.

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You know, people were terrified. A friend of Chilian friend

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of mine told me that if you get into a

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cab in Santiago or anywhere, actually you had to be

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very very careful of what you talked about because you

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didn't know if the cab driver would report the clone

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the same if it was talking about the political environment

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to the police. And I had the good fortune and

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this really was a good fortune. A fabula later year.

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She passed away about two years ago. She was a

225
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human rights lawyer and she was the brother of Orlando

226
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later year who was assassinated body Chan in Washington. She

227
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was one of the lawyers for Joyce Foremen. When I

228
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went back in two thousand and one, and we were

229
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at the courthouse and we left. It was Fabuola, and

230
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there was another attorney. It was Joyce, and there was

231
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a friend of Joyce. We were walking toward a restaurant

232
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for lunch and for some reason I was scripped by

233
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anxiety and I thought I could be shot. I got

234
00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:46.720
you know, I could be shot in the Streetia, because

235
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what had happened was sixteen minutes and sent down a

236
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film crew to film us. But they get down there

237
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and they decided not to do it. But that aside.

238
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So I said to Fabiola, I said, Fabula, aren't you

239
00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:04.679
I mean, you're so well known, you're the sister or

240
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of late of Orlando, and now you're involved in this.

241
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And she's she didn't say that, she wasn't afraid. What

242
00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:14.840
she said was she said, when I walking down the street,

243
00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:17.639
it's not unusual for someone to call me a whore

244
00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.559
or say, oh, you're only doing this because you're making

245
00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:24.159
money off of Orlando, you know. And she said, I'm

246
00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:28.200
living with my sister, and they provided me with bodyguards.

247
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And she said, sister, we'll talk, you know about politics.

248
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I have to say, do not talk politics. We have

249
00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:39.039
two men here who supposedly are guarding me, but we

250
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:43.240
don't know anything about them, you know, so please don't

251
00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:46.399
talk politics when they're here. So it's that type of

252
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you know, atmosphere.

253
00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:59.519
Yeah, and we know generally don La Salo Natuna was

254
00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:03.279
a horror, horrible Please what do you feel comfortable sharing

255
00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:05.639
about your time there? And I guess how did you

256
00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:06.639
end up there?

257
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:11.919
Well, what happened was, let's see, this would have been

258
00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:16.759
before this, before the crew Marina had bought a home

259
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:22.039
for an apartment right downtown in Santiago for John Wiggins

260
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:25.919
and Charles Carry. Wiggins was a mary No priest, but

261
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:29.519
he never really acted as a priest. He was actually

262
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:33.120
a filmmaker and he was doing telling novellas and had

263
00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:39.000
he had a director, an Argentinian director who wrote the script,

264
00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:43.759
and he had Chilean actors and actresses. And Wiggins was

265
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he just didn't experience any anxiety at all. I mean,

266
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:50.120
I've never met anyone that just he just wasn't afraid

267
00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:52.879
of anything. And he used to have running arguments with

268
00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:57.960
the Socialist and the Christian Democrats who had headquarters on

269
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:01.919
the street where he lived. Anyway, walking toward the house,

270
00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:04.359
a friend of mine and Wiggants was out of the country.

271
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He was in Germany trying to raise money for his project,

272
00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:10.680
and the other fellow was coming back from the state

273
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and this friend of mine noticed a woman or someone

274
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:15.720
in the doorway. We get up to her. She was

275
00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:21.799
probably mid twenties, and she introduced herself and said that

276
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:23.960
she was working and day can I sent her down

277
00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:27.599
the street for the Methodist church. So we invited her

278
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:31.960
in and she said that she wanted to, you know,

279
00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:36.599
come to the house. Because she speaking Spanish. It tired

280
00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.799
her out. So my friend and I went into the

281
00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:41.680
kitchen to make coffee and they said, well, let's give

282
00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:43.799
her a cad and he said, no, no, we don't even

283
00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:46.519
know her. Plus, this is in our house, you know,

284
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.920
and they said, well, look John and Charlie were here.

285
00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:52.440
They would give her a case. So we gave her case.

286
00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:53.480
She was Cia.

287
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:55.240
Wow.

288
00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:59.799
Yeah. I only found that out when I came back,

289
00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.519
you know, when I got out, when I was expelled

290
00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:05.960
and came back to New York. This is the little

291
00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:09.319
tidbit about good old Miguel. Miguel at that time was

292
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:13.160
in New York and Miguel got a phone call. I

293
00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:15.640
only found this out when it was too late. Migel

294
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:18.519
got a phone call f instead of to Kennedy, wanted

295
00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:21.720
to speak with me because he wanted to invite me

296
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:29.480
to Washington too, would appear before Congressional Inquiry. And Miguel said, well, gee,

297
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.519
I'm sorry, he's not available, which was absolute lie. I

298
00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:37.240
was available, but you know Miguel hadn't had his conversion yet.

299
00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:38.640
Yeah.

300
00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:43.279
Yes, So anyway, when I founded, I said, so, I

301
00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:46.440
went down to Washington, and there's a group, very fine

302
00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:50.759
group called NAKLA North American Congress and Latin America, and

303
00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:52.799
I spoke to them and they told me that they

304
00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:58.000
had checked on this woman Jane Rizo, and the Methodist

305
00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:01.079
Church didn't know anything about him, and then they found

306
00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:05.400
out that that she was Cia, which would make sense

307
00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:08.720
because we were told when we were released we had

308
00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:12.720
three days a week at the most to get out

309
00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:16.319
of the country since we were being expelled. And months

310
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:19.160
and months later she was still in the country and

311
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:21.839
she was living of all, think she was living with

312
00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:29.880
the very little sisters. So and so she fingered the house,

313
00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:34.599
I'm sure. So anyway, we gave it the keys. And

314
00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:38.640
then when the curfew had been lifted, which is five

315
00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:41.759
days after the coup. I went to the house and

316
00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:45.160
to my surprise, she was there. So I went into

317
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.559
to the kitchen to make coffee in the door array,

318
00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:53.799
and I can distinct fifty three years later, Carmen Casina.

319
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:58.039
I can still remember. I said to myself, they'd come

320
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:00.640
for me. I can just stick. Do you remember my

321
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.519
saying that to myself. Where that thought came from, I

322
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:06.039
don't know. I went to the door and we had

323
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:09.240
a little like window. I looked out there was six

324
00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:12.960
members of machine guns. Opened the door. They came rushing

325
00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:17.240
in and pushed me against the wall, you know, And

326
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:20.359
then they went into this room that we used to

327
00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:22.960
use as the library, and there she was sitting down.

328
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:26.119
So they told her to get up and they set

329
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:31.119
empty pockets and she had this humongous roll of Argentinian,

330
00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:36.240
Brazilian and Chilean currency. And they looked at her in amazement,

331
00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:38.920
as did I, and they said, what are you did

332
00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:42.240
you walk around with this? And she just didn't give

333
00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:46.119
an answer, and that was the start of it. They

334
00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:48.880
really went crazy. What They went into the first room,

335
00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.440
which is just Johnny Wiggins's room, and Wiggins had this

336
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:54.799
It was actually very beautiful. It was a piece of

337
00:20:56.319 --> 00:20:59.240
leather dyed red and it had the outline of the

338
00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:03.680
facial outline either linen attacked to the to the wall

339
00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.960
inside the building, they saw that the atandas they ransacked

340
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.119
his room, they ransacked to other rooms. They went to

341
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:14.720
the office of this group that used to operate on

342
00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:20.440
the house called PATA, which was a group went by

343
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:24.799
this American priest who did a monthly newsletter for people

344
00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:27.000
in the States, trying to educate them to what was

345
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:31.440
happening in Chile. Fortunately, they had come to the house

346
00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:36.880
before the secret police got there and burnt the stuff,

347
00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:41.519
and so they really couldn't find anything. But there were

348
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:45.640
some agents out in the courtyard and they probably out

349
00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:48.000
there and soon the agent said, well, what are these

350
00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:51.079
ashes here? And they said, well, that's where we burned

351
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:56.599
the rubbish to cabbage. And he said, well, okay, who

352
00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.519
are the orange pills? Where are the n bills? That's

353
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:05.400
where they had burnt the literature, you know. So so

354
00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:10.359
there we uh this seminarian came in and he was

355
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.079
picked up right away and we were all taken to

356
00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:19.559
uh downtown Santana to invest the garcioris. And this this

357
00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:25.039
is really I think of all of the experiences that

358
00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:28.319
I had during the coup in the the stadium, this

359
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.400
is the most terrifying. I think to me, I wasn't

360
00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:33.920
terrified at all for some reason in the STADIU where

361
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:36.200
I can tell you a reason why led up. But

362
00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:40.240
I wasn't afraid at all in the stadium. But when

363
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.039
we went to investor gacionies, we were interrogated, we you know,

364
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:47.359
had to give a statement. But in the in the

365
00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:52.359
hallways to were these young boys thirteen fourteen with suits,

366
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:57.160
ties in armed beings. The armed beans were from the

367
00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:02.000
Pati Libertad, this fascist group that and they had sub

368
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:05.640
machine guns. They started in you were patroling the cards,

369
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:09.640
and then as as we were taking down these carts,

370
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:14.279
they had, you know, office doors open, and I saw

371
00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:17.519
this woman who I would for some reason, and I

372
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:21.160
don't know why I thought she was. She was seated there,

373
00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:24.039
she was probably in the third She had this incredibly

374
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:27.720
sad look on her face. And they said, you know,

375
00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:31.799
I thought, and I said, Brent, I just I didn't

376
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:33.160
want to think of what they were going to do

377
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:38.240
to her. So we went from there. So they had

378
00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:41.160
they had picked up some ship, some clind from the house,

379
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:43.759
so they dropped that off and they took us to

380
00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:48.039
the stadium, and as they pulled up, this young soldier

381
00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.960
he was probably in this late teens early twenties, came

382
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.519
running to the car and the driver put down the

383
00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:58.319
window and he said he had just witnessed the Cuban

384
00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:03.000
woman being executed by Aaron squad. And then we were

385
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:07.160
taken in, we were processed, we were putting. What they

386
00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:11.000
had done was they had taken the soccer locker rooms

387
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.880
and changing with the cell. So the first we got there,

388
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:18.000
probably about six o'clock at night, there were seventy men

389
00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:20.759
in the cell. I was in the next day to

390
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:24.680
one hundred and fifty three, and then you know, things

391
00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:31.920
started happening. There was a Canadian who was looking through

392
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:35.599
a window fan that had been turned off to the outside,

393
00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:38.839
and he was telling us what he was seeing, which

394
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.559
was a bus had pulled up and the women who

395
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:44.359
were told to get off, they sat on the sidewalk

396
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:47.519
and they were beaten by the soldiers with the rifle butts.

397
00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:49.920
And then at the time that was happening, there was

398
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:53.079
someone looking out another one theow Fann on the other

399
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:58.160
side of the to sell and the end that had

400
00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:01.440
been turned off, and they had formed. The soldiers had

401
00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:04.839
borned the gauntlet, and they were making men running and

402
00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:07.440
one man fell and the soldier shot him in the

403
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:10.240
chest and then blew at the end of his ripe

404
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:12.799
and started laughing, and no one went went to help him.

405
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.960
And that was very That was verified by a Nicodaguan

406
00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:20.279
doctor who was being processed out in the hallway and

407
00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:22.400
came in and said, you know, so we had we

408
00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:25.759
had you heard what was happening. He actually saw what happened.

409
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:34.000
And then so, as I said earlier, I was not afraid.

410
00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:36.640
You know, when I looked back at it, I don't

411
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:39.759
think I in fact I know, I just wasn't afraid.

412
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:42.319
And the question is, well, given what was going on

413
00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:44.480
and what you were exposed to, and that would I

414
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:46.480
just recover? It was a few, just a few of

415
00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:49.799
the things that happened. Uh. The individual I was with

416
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:53.839
the seminary and had had a he had a mental breakdown.

417
00:25:56.200 --> 00:26:00.559
And the evidence of that was he come up to

418
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:05.200
me and he would be incredibly angry, and his face

419
00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:08.720
would be distorted and raged, and he'd have he clinched

420
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:11.559
his fists and he'd say, we have to demand. We

421
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:14.640
have to see cridolous esp knows we have to demand

422
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:16.880
that we get we have to demand that he let

423
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:19.640
us go. And I looked at him. I said, Peter,

424
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:24.359
without in the position to demand anything of anyone. And

425
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:30.119
then he'd be silent, his face would buil blank. He turned.

426
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:33.720
He to walk away, and then a few minutes later

427
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:36.920
he would come back. He said, Joe, you're going to

428
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.640
tap me on the shoulder and you're going to wake

429
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:41.680
me up, and you're going to tell me this is

430
00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:44.960
a dream. And I said, Peter, this is not a dream.

431
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:50.279
I said, what you're seeing and what your feeling is happening,

432
00:26:50.359 --> 00:26:54.799
it's real, Peter. So that he'd walk away, and then

433
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:58.359
another whenever time of day or two liter or whatever,

434
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:01.440
he came up to me and he said, hey, job,

435
00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:05.680
I just met a priest. He spoke perfect English, and

436
00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:07.480
he told me that we're getting out of here in

437
00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:11.079
the two days. I said, really, I said, well, Peter,

438
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:13.799
the next time you see that priest, can you tell me. Okay,

439
00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:19.799
that was an hallucination to his one priest there he

440
00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:25.640
was he's an European. Uh. There was a word that

441
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:29.119
was used at the time. A chile Momeo. Uh, but

442
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:33.640
Momeo and Chilean slangman were right wing, right winger. He

443
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:36.440
was completely right wing. He got on the get on

444
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.240
the PA system and tell us that we should all

445
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:42.839
be thankful that the military had overthrown the Endi can

446
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:46.960
saved the Concutrom communism. So it certainly wasn't him that was.

447
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:51.079
And he didn't speak English, I know that. So what

448
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.559
kept me saying and I think what contributed to my

449
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:59.000
not having a fear is I said to myself, Peter

450
00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:03.880
has lost it. He's lucinating, he said, a mental breakdown.

451
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:07.599
I can't lose it. I have to hold myself together

452
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:10.839
because if I lose it, we're drones, you know. And

453
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:15.039
that really helped me. It helped me a lot. On

454
00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:21.160
the way back to the States, I was concerned before

455
00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:23.519
we even get on the plane. So I spoke to

456
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:27.319
the priest who was the superior, and I said, listen,

457
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:29.680
I said, I'm really concerned about I'd already told him

458
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:33.400
my concerned. I said, you know, I just hope he doesn't,

459
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:36.680
you know, act out on the plane. So he said, listen,

460
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:39.160
here's a value. And to give you a value, he said,

461
00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:42.119
if need be, give it to him. So we were

462
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:45.480
flying and he wasn't acted out at all, but I

463
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:48.799
was nervous and he would be. So I went to

464
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:53.160
the schood and I said listen. I said, we've just

465
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:58.440
had an experience in Truli, and he said, we know

466
00:28:58.519 --> 00:29:02.519
who you are, we know what you've been through. I said, listen,

467
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:05.359
can you radio have the pilot radio hit and ask

468
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:07.559
it does anyone going to be anyone a JFK to

469
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:09.839
meet us? He said, I can't do that. He said,

470
00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:13.079
we're flying over Cuba and regulations are we can't have

471
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:18.200
any transmission or flying over Cuba sont So anyway, Peter

472
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:23.759
did not act out. That's true. But the other thing

473
00:29:23.799 --> 00:29:27.920
I noticed about myself, besides not having any theory, was

474
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:32.160
all the time that I was there and most of them,

475
00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:36.519
all the time, I was hyper vigilant. I was really

476
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.119
just something I just I, you know, I. And what

477
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:44.880
I noticed was and we were only in we were

478
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:49.759
in two locker rooms, and what I noticed in each

479
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:52.720
of those locker rooms to be a man. Of course

480
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.000
we're all being uh, he would slip out. Who just

481
00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:00.920
took me? Walk out into the carter? Well, there were

482
00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:06.039
soldiers with then when rifles and cloud I thought, what's

483
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:09.799
going on here that you know, he goes out, he

484
00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:13.440
stays out for half hours so and then he comes back,

485
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:19.200
and then later he goes, I'll go out again and

486
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:22.200
come back. And this happened in the two locker rooms.

487
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:24.680
So I think what had happened. I think they had

488
00:30:24.759 --> 00:30:28.640
plants in the locker in the locker rooms, you know,

489
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:32.279
and they were going out to reporting what they had seen.

490
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:33.920
That makes sense.

491
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:36.599
I don't think I was frightened. There was a he

492
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:41.640
was a really signed individual Chilean. He was the editor

493
00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:45.240
of the well you know. It was a communist called

494
00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:51.519
Punt and he in this in one of the cells

495
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:56.519
that I did, locker rooms. He was he organized the

496
00:30:56.599 --> 00:31:00.119
men and he would he would have people get talks.

497
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:06.400
Every day. We would and uh, Pablo Neru they had

498
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.960
died there. We had They were given us newspapers, so

499
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:14.559
we saw the newspapers. So the Chilians wanted to do

500
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:17.160
like a little memorial service farm and it had just

501
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:22.000
started when from the next door they sell next door,

502
00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:24.680
we heard these piercing screams and it was a man

503
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:29.440
being tortured. And I had seen him earlier spread eagles

504
00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:32.079
against the wall, and I saw her as I took

505
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:34.839
him into the room, and that was not for an

506
00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:40.240
hour and a half. And that that was upsetting, to

507
00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:46.519
say the least, you know, to hit that. And yet

508
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:48.880
in the same cell, and I don't know what I

509
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:52.279
heard later that he he was a Belgian. I heard

510
00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:59.359
he was a Belgian journalist. And then on another occasion, Uh,

511
00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:03.440
we were only fed twice a day. We were given

512
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:07.720
like I think, warm milk in the morning, maybe a

513
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:11.119
piece of bread. Around the afternoon. We were given this

514
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:16.119
very thin soap soup with several strands of spahti and

515
00:32:16.119 --> 00:32:21.519
that was it. In eleven days, I lost twenty six pounds.

516
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.519
But they we would we would have to line up

517
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:28.000
in the in the in the cell and at the

518
00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:31.359
doorway to the card they would you give you the coffee,

519
00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:33.200
or give you the bread, or you know, give the

520
00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:36.039
bowl of soup and then you eat it out. And

521
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:39.960
underneath the sports could be the stadium, the soccer teadium.

522
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.759
So you could see into other cells. And I saw

523
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:48.559
in the cell that this man had been tortured. There

524
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:54.640
was this striking they really striking to handsome man. He

525
00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:59.319
was about six to two. Uh. He had an overcoat on,

526
00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:03.839
he had he had draped around the shoulders and he

527
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:07.640
was he was slowly walking back and forth, tasting back

528
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:14.480
and forth. He was reading from the New Testament paper

529
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:17.440
back edition to New Testament, and I recognized him right away.

530
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:20.839
His name was Jaree Knoy. He was he was Administer

531
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:24.000
of the Indies government, so he was a big prize

532
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:28.200
for them. Whatever happened to him, I could ever find out.

533
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:35.039
Wow, Yeah, that's that's heroine. And I just got done

534
00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:39.480
listening to I mean it's fiction, but based off of

535
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:45.200
what happened. Isabel A Yendez the House of the Spirits,

536
00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:49.960
and she described a lot of like similar descriptions of

537
00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:53.119
like what happened to her characters and when they were taken,

538
00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:56.680
and a lot of the same like atmosphere of surveillance

539
00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:01.440
in general and people being a list and still like that,

540
00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:04.319
trying to help each other out, knowing the risk and

541
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:09.239
I don't know, just very emotional, very heroin to hear

542
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:09.760
about it.

543
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:15.679
Yeah. When I came back, I worked for a year

544
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:20.320
in Boston as a bilingual consulate and the woman who

545
00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:25.800
supervised me was a Cuban and she was a professor

546
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.280
at Boston University, and she encouraged me to get into

547
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:32.519
the program, the psychology program, which I did, and part

548
00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:34.760
of the psychology program, I had to do an internship

549
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:39.719
and I was sent to this clinic which a friend

550
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:42.719
of mine actually was working. He was a student a

551
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:48.239
year enemy. He was Mexican, and there was this woman

552
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:51.880
there too that worked and they had a Spanish team,

553
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:54.760
the two of them. So we were the three of

554
00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:57.280
us were talking and then if I ain't get up

555
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:59.960
and walked out. And I said to the woman, I said,

556
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:03.239
I said, you speak Spanish like a chilead. I'll never

557
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:07.039
get She said, so Chile, She said, really okay. So

558
00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:11.039
we became very good friends. And her husband had been

559
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:15.960
picked up and said to a concentration camp and they

560
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:18.639
didn't know where he was for a long period of time.

561
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:26.440
And his brother was an archbishop in Santiago, and through

562
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:29.320
him they found out where he was going to release.

563
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:31.559
But the condition of being released was that the whole

564
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:36.840
family had gone to exile. So they they came to Omaha,

565
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:44.360
Nebraska anyway, and he met her. The woman with the

566
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:48.480
wife said, you know, she said, my husband has never

567
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:52.480
talked about the experience. She said, all this time has

568
00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:56.119
gone by and he's never never said anything about it,

569
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:59.519
and that I think is well, it is fairly clung

570
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:03.840
for the victims to do that. And one of the

571
00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:10.480
fellas that we we slept in turns of three hours

572
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:12.800
each and we had to share a blanket with whoever

573
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:16.599
was sleeping next to us on the floor, and it

574
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:21.119
was a fellow from Switzerland, Martine. And years later I

575
00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:24.320
was working for this organization in Boston and one of

576
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:26.880
the fellas in the organization said, you know, my ex

577
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:33.719
girlfriend is dating this guy from Switzerland. And I said,

578
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:37.840
I think I know who it is. She said, he

579
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:41.280
said really, I said, yeah, Martine, he said yeah. He

580
00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:43.480
said she would like to have you own for dinner

581
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:46.320
and talk. You know, because he said nothing. He has

582
00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:50.280
said nothing at all about the experience, so we know

583
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:53.880
because I'm talking Kentucky now and this is a revelation

584
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:56.719
to her because he has said none of this. But

585
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:59.719
he even then he wouldn't say anything, you know, so

586
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:01.760
it's fairly common.

587
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:03.440
Yeah.

588
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:11.280
Yeah, the side of that is that and this happened

589
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:13.760
to me, and maybe it's what I'm doing right now.

590
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:17.719
For all I know. When I get released and people

591
00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:20.199
would ask me about it, I just couldn't stop talking

592
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:22.760
about it. I just would go on and on and

593
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.119
on and on and on and on and on, and

594
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:28.199
one guy, one friend of mine, said, you're gonna be

595
00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:30.079
telling this to your grandkids, you know what I mean?

596
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:34.440
And you know, with time and with a lot of therapy,

597
00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:40.000
I can control my urge to to tell my story.

598
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:45.480
No, it's definitely important though. I mean, I know, like obviously,

599
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:51.440
every person processes their own way and whenever if they're

600
00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:55.679
ready to share. But I think it's important for everyone else,

601
00:37:56.280 --> 00:37:58.840
especially people from the United States, to hear about what

602
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:04.639
happened because of the role that our government had in

603
00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:07.320
those atrocities, and we need to know.

604
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:18.039
Yeah. Yeah. The way the book came about was I

605
00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:21.400
had a folder on Chili and I was there in

606
00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:24.280
my basement going through the file and I had to

607
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:30.280
open the folder and probably decades actually, and I didn't

608
00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:33.519
give up my favor written notes from the stadium. Whow.

609
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:38.000
So I sent an email to the cheer a friend

610
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:42.519
of mine who's a playwright on Santiago, and my little

611
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:44.559
fantasy was that she was going to say, Wow, this

612
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.039
is going to make a great play. You know, we'll

613
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:49.760
make this a play. And she wrote back and she

614
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:52.679
didn't say that she said, this is something. This is

615
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:56.519
a document used to send to the moussel meordia did

616
00:38:56.519 --> 00:38:59.119
ancients of Manos, which is what I did. They were

617
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:04.639
accepted it, you know. But why I forgot about that,

618
00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:10.239
I know, but I don't know. Maybe it's part of

619
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:11.239
the trauma. I don't know.

620
00:39:11.559 --> 00:39:13.159
Yeah, maybe your own brain protecting.

621
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:22.199
Yeah. And then this actually this friend of mine, Chilean player, right,

622
00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:26.440
she's actually the daughter in law of the minute of

623
00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:29.719
this chilling friend of mine. So we manta knew about it,

624
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:34.880
you know. I had actually sent them the the diary

625
00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:38.559
in Spanish. So they get there really and I was

626
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:41.639
kind of taken aback that they were so taken aback,

627
00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:46.199
you know, by this, And part of their action was

628
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:48.440
to be apologetic. They said, she, you came to our

629
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:51.000
country and look how they treated you. And that's not

630
00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:52.800
my experience. I mean, I didn't look at it that

631
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:57.400
way at all, you know, at all. It's not your fault.

632
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:00.880
You know that this happened, that happened, you know, it

633
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:04.920
certainly didn't change how I feel about Chili. But so

634
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:07.199
that was a kind of an interest, the accident I

635
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:09.639
thought that they had. But then I get to the

636
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:14.320
thinking could I could I make this a book, you know,

637
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:20.440
And so I began writing it in along the way,

638
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:23.159
I was having doubts here and there about it, and

639
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:26.960
these friends of mine said, no that you know, you

640
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:29.400
gotta finish this, you know, you gotta gotta tell the

641
00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:31.880
story something. That's what I did.

642
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:40.559
Yeah, and it's yeah, so important for you know, I mean,

643
00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:44.000
everyone really to read. But like Carmen was saying, especially

644
00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:50.920
us in the US. But just so we don't end

645
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.119
on that experience. We did see that you were in

646
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:57.360
that is actually where our dad is from. So we

647
00:40:57.400 --> 00:40:59.920
wanted to ask what was that like for you? Being

648
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:01.480
and inside of the old.

649
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:09.960
That was wonderful, you know. In nineteen seventy three, this

650
00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:14.320
would he had been in January. This organization that I

651
00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:17.320
belonged to, every six years they would elect the new offices.

652
00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:23.000
So they had their election in the fall of seventy two,

653
00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:26.719
and a friend of mine, who actually had been a

654
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:31.760
superior in in Chile, was elected the head of the

655
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:37.199
whole organization. So he said, would you mind going to

656
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.480
Latin America and explaining some of the changes that we

657
00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:43.760
voted on to people? And I said, not at all. Well,

658
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:47.960
the first country I went to was El Salvador. And

659
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:51.079
the memory I have of that was I had never

660
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:53.960
met people as friendly as the people in El Salvada.

661
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:56.960
I mean I was just kind of like blown away

662
00:41:57.159 --> 00:42:01.679
by that, you know. And then when I get expelled

663
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:05.000
from Chile and went back to New York and I

664
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:07.360
got there and I worked. Got there in October of

665
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:11.199
seventy three, this friend of mine, who is the head

666
00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:15.320
of the organization, called me into his office and said, listen,

667
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:21.559
you know, we think you should take another assignment. And

668
00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:24.519
I said, well, I'd love to take another. What do

669
00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:26.840
you have in mind, he said, El Salvador. I said perfect.

670
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:29.519
You know. So I was on a plane like a

671
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:33.440
week or so later, and I liked it. And I

672
00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:39.440
really really liked it. I like the people whose I'd like, well,

673
00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:49.119
you know, it's you know, Gringos sometimes talk about the

674
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:51.800
warmth of Latins. I mean I really felt the warmth,

675
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:55.559
and I sallad you know part of it too. I

676
00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:58.239
think when I got there, you know, things were starting

677
00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:03.360
to rip up in terms of the paramilitaries and stuff

678
00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:05.760
like that. And they had been a fellow that had

679
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:09.079
been picked up, he had been released, and they all

680
00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:12.639
knew my story because I guess the people who I

681
00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:15.119
was going to live with it told the story, so

682
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:17.920
that was that was part of it for them too.

683
00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:22.800
You know. I think it accepted me that they were

684
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:25.519
about to really go through a rough period of time,

685
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:29.840
as you know, and I come out of this in Chile,

686
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:35.840
so they really trucked me in, you know, very much so.

687
00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:38.440
And then of course I ended up working for the

688
00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:41.079
government for about almost a year and that was a

689
00:43:41.079 --> 00:43:45.280
great experience. Have you have dict we.

690
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:50.360
We haven't been. Our dad just recently got his residency

691
00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:55.480
and was able to visit after decades of not being

692
00:43:55.519 --> 00:43:58.719
able to visit, and so he's been, He's gone back

693
00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.000
a few times already, and he another trip lined up

694
00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:05.840
next month. Good, so maybe one day we we got

695
00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:10.199
to go with him and join him. And it's funny

696
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:13.719
because he says that Mexicans are more friendly than Saltorian's.

697
00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:18.719
Oh yeah, he does say that. That's how he feels

698
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:20.280
like maybe it's just.

699
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:27.000
You, yeah yeah.

700
00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:30.599
And then just before we wrap up, is there like

701
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:34.039
one I don't know, final message maybe for our listeners

702
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:37.199
about your book that you would like to share. And

703
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:39.280
then also I guess where they can get the book

704
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:39.920
as well?

705
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:45.239
Sure, The book, Chilly Members of the Past, is available

706
00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:53.119
from Amazon the audio, kindle and paperback. In the base

707
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:57.159
of the book is my Diary. Actually that's the longest chapter.

708
00:44:57.199 --> 00:45:02.960
It's about ten twelve pages long, and it's what happened. Also.

709
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:05.639
I think the other part of it that might interest

710
00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:11.079
people is going back to Chile to test about against

711
00:45:11.239 --> 00:45:18.000
military offices and the communications that I had with Fabiolard

712
00:45:18.119 --> 00:45:21.679
and Joyce Hooman, the Little of Childs Swaan was ectecuted

713
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:22.519
about the military.

714
00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:26.840
And thank you so much for coming on and sharing

715
00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:29.960
your experiences. It's again, like like Carmen was saying, just

716
00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:33.239
I don't know, it's very impactful, I think to hear it.

717
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:37.239
Yeah, well, thank you for inviting me. I really appreciate it,

718
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:39.800
really appreciate it.

719
00:45:39.880 --> 00:45:41.559
All right, Well, yeah it was. It was such a

720
00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:45.480
great experience to hear everything, and we're so glad that

721
00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:48.719
you reached out and to have you on and hopefully

722
00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:54.760
our listeners learn something new. Enjoy the episode and thanks

723
00:45:54.760 --> 00:46:03.000
for listening, everybody. My but My Estoria Unknown is produced

724
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:06.239
by Carmen and Christina, researched by Carmen and Christina, edited

725
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:09.039
by Christina. You can find sources for every episode at

726
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:12.440
Estoria unknown dot com and in our show notes. Creating

727
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:13.760
the podcast has a lot of work, so if you

728
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:15.960
want to help us out financially, you can do so

729
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.880
by supporting us on Patreon at patreon dot com. Slash

730
00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:21.039
Studio as an own podcast