May 14, 2026

The Other Side of the Bracero Story with Irvin Ibargüen

The Other Side of the Bracero Story with Irvin Ibargüen
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Caught in the Current: Mexico's Struggle to Regulate Emigration, 1940–1980 is a pioneering analysis of Mexico’s efforts to curb the outflow of its citizens to the United States. It spotlights the miscalculation of Mexican authorities, who believed they could restrain migration at will—particularly when it provoked social chaos, drained the domestic labor pool, or produced egregious cases of migrant abuse. Mexico’s counter-migratory policies, both those based on coercion and incentives, repeatedly collapsed. Mexican migrants resisted restrictions, U.S. authorities refused to cooperate, and Mexican officials ultimately lacked resolve. As the migration swelled, it slipped beyond Mexico’s control. What was once seen as a looming source of disorder, depletion, and disgrace became naturalized as an irreversible fact of national life.

Follow Irvin Ibarguen's work and get his book here: https://www.irvinibarguen.com/

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WEBVTT

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Hi, everyone, This is Carmen and Christina and this is

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so known a podcast where we talk to professors. Ah no,

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it's a podcast, Yes, a podcast where we talk about

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lain American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals with eavy

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topics like cracism, corruption, and genocide. But more than that,

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it's also about power, resistance and community. And today we

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had the chance the opportunity to talk to Urban Ibarguen,

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a professional historian born and raised in Brooklyn, New York.

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He is a history professor at New York University, where

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he teaches courses on US and immigration history. Urban's research

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proceeds from one question, what happens when we stop prioritizing

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how immigration impacts the United States and instead grapple with

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how sending states, transit states, and migrants themselves experienced it.

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And we're talking with him about his first book, Caught

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in the Current Mexico Struggled to Regulate Emigration nineteen forty

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to nineteen eighty And what a fascinating conversation it was

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absolutely Yeah. I don't know, I think everyone needs to

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read this book. It I don't even think it was

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like because you know how some academic books like are

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too academic. Yeah, I didn't really feel like that. I

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had a good time reading it. I didn't have to

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I did have to look up some words, but it

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wasn't like other books where I'm reading it, I'm like,

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what the hell did I just say?

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It was easy to understand.

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Yeah, And if you're listening to this, like this topic

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is will interest you no matter what, Like there's you

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have to get this book, yes, and to us, we

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touch on some of these things in our conversation with Irvin,

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but the book touches and so much that we've talked about.

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You know, obviously US imperialism and their demand for cheap labor, right,

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but also like during Mexico's grapple with emigration, right, they're

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also considering US imperialism in Central America and how that

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the optics of that and how they're you know, are

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they going to condemn us in intervention in Guatemala? Like

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things like that, which was super interesting to read about. Right,

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you could pull out a Bingo card and then like

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see what we've talked about, because you know what else

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popped up? That's what I was waiting for you to say,

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Si sem Travis, Yes Kissinger Kissinger who is actually on

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our bingo card.

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I think if he's not here, show me.

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But yeah, I definitely check that book out and hopefully

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you enjoy this conversation we have with urban. All Right,

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Hi everyone, this is Carmen and Christina.

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Hi everyone, I'm Ervin Bargwin, professor of history at NYU.

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Yes, we have a professor with us today, Yes, profet. Well,

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let's just jump right into our topic. Irvin here is

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going to be sharing with us about his book Caught

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in the Current and Mexico's I guess struggle with immigration

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and all the stories involved with that.

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Yeah, broadly, I guess the story is does center the

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Mexican government, mostly because that's where I found new sources.

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You know, as a historian, basically we like we're really

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dependent upon what we find in archives and that sort

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of thing. So for me, the story really began in

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grad school. I went to the two hundred. Other than that,

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in Mexico City. I got to read all these memos

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and internal conversations that Mexican politicians were having in the

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forties and fifties and sixties about Mexican migration, and I

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was really surprised what I found there, Right, because kind

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of Usually the story is that, you know, Mexico is

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happy to see people go. Right, this kind of very

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signical interpretation, right, that the Mexican state uses it as

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a safety valve, right to release pressures related to unemployment

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and political turmo and that sort of thing. And so

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that's really colored the way I think historians and just

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the general public really thinks about places like Mexico.

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Right.

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In some ways, Mexico is just kind of like a

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anchor for the larger way in which I think Americans

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think about the global South and developing world. Right, they

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basically think that these countries take advantage of America, right,

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that you know, America is like a dumping ground that

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the global South uses.

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Right.

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So you see this this theory, though it's academic theory,

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the safety about theory, it basically gets replicated by like

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Donald Trump, right where he says, you know, the shipthole

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country centers there their worst, right, that's basically the safety

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valut theory, just in like colloquial speaker. And so that's

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why I was so struck when I went to the

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archives and I noticed, actually that's not the full story, right, Yes,

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you do have this impulse within Mexico to release some

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of its population abroad because they anticipate that they can

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work in the US and gain higher wages and that

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sort of thing. But it's always a very careful kind

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of hedging process, right. They recognize it's kind of like

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a devil's bargain, right, like, yes, you know, yes we

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were able to send these people north, but then that

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exposes us to a variety of blowback.

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And so in the book I talk about some of

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that blowback. You know.

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The first is that it creates kind of chaos internally

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with the Mexico because basically a lot of people Before

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you get to leave, you have to actually move within Mexico.

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You have to move from Central Mexico to north northern Mexico.

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And a lot of time, these northern Mexican towns are

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not ready for tens of thousands of people to just

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show up kind of unannounced, right, And so there's this

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kind of institutional lag where like some of these towns

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in northern Mexico they don't even have like a public

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hospital or anything like that and infrastructure to really receive

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migration and act as a staging ground for the international migration.

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The second big challenges of course that there does come

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a point where yes, you're sending people abroad, but then

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you're depleting your local industries, your national industries of labor.

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Right.

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And of course the great irony is that in northern Mexico,

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basically the same crops that grow in southern California and

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Texas they grow also on northern Mexican side.

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Right, It's kind of one united geography.

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And so you know, throughout the forties fifty sixties, you

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see you know, oligarchs and corporations along northern Mexico basically complaining,

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right that this migration is a terrible idea because they

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could use that labor too. Right, It's not not just

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America that can use this quote unquote cheap labor. They

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will want a little bit of that too. Last, and

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the most important reason for the Mexican state really to

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be concerned with migration is that it creates a reputational damage, right,

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the ruling party of the pri part of it's kind

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of like, you know, claim to popularity is that it's

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supposed to be the champion of the average Mexican peasant.

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Right.

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Of course, it's hard to claim that when you are

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sending people abroad to be abused in the United States, right,

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And so that ends up being kind of one of

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the main reasons why the Mexican state at times really

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has to kind of like reckon with the devil's bargain

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and say, you know, I actually, perhaps it may be

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in our best interest to experiments with countermigratory strategies, right

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to keep people at home rather than have them go abroad.

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And so the book basically goes into that the way

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in which Mexico basically sits on the fence throughout most

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most of the twenty twenty century sometimes kind of wanted

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wanting to dip their toe in this kind of realm

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of facilitating migration and then kind of getting scared right

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and pulling back right because that to me is actually

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the story, right, And ultimately, of course as a title

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gestures that they of course fail caught in the current.

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Really it's meant to evoke the way in which, you know,

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it's not just American politicians that talk about migration that's

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flows that they can be controlled. We also see the

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same thing in Mexico, right. The discourse in the forties, fifties,

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sixties is to think about migration that's fluholes that can

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be directed internally, and they you know, the Spanish show

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gets really poetic with the language and all that sort

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of stuff, But basically it's the same image of the

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same fantasy of migration control, this idea that you can

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open it and close it and calibrate it however you want,

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whenever you want.

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Right.

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We know that that's the story on the American side, right,

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because we live it. You know, America is always like

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either going opening borders or closing borders and kind of

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like stuck in this perpetual pendulum. But the same thing

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happens in Mexico r and the same thing happens across

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the global salid Right, people basically change their mi Right,

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we just haven't allowed for that kind of variability because

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we have these kind of arrogant takes on the global South.

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They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course they

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would just want people to leave. Well, yeah, sure, they

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want to at some point they entertain the possibility that

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that might be a mutually beneficial thing. But there are

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concrete moments right where the Mexican state again because it

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is an authoritarian state, because it is very concerned about

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its image, not because it actually cares about people, but

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just because it's concerned about it, right, does pull back.

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So that's again where I went into archives and I

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found you know, it's not that I looked for them,

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it's just they're really boxes and boxes and stuff. And

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so that's really what stood out to me. And again

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it's not just the Mexican state as a Mexican American.

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What struck me the most were the wide cross section

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of people across Mexican society. I'm talking about like labor organizations, peasants, syndicates,

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peasant organizations, competine organizations, business lobbies, all of which were

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like actively writing in the forties and fifties to the

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Mexican government laying out their blueprint for how they thought

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Mexico could solve the migratory crisis.

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Right, These particular.

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Concern and effected communities, right felt that migration itself was

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this kind of humiliation, and so for that reason they

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often volunteered right their ideas. Right, I think I think

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that's a very interesting like the kind of policies that

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come out of that are suggestions to me were so fascinating,

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right because they were always very like, very concrete and

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very specific in their diagnoses of what was wrong with Mexico,

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like the pots themselves, they were kind of talking in

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general terms about, you know, we need to invest more

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in the fields and this kind of stuff would you expect,

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whereas the effect of the communities would be like, no,

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you know, we would stay if you know, if there

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was just less corruption inside the organization that redistribute to hetos,

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if you would just kind of speed up the paperwork

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and get us our heato, we would actually stay here.

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You don't have to like do anything crazy. All you

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gotta do is literally just make sure that paperwork gets

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tout quickly, and we'll stay. Business organizations have their ideas.

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They say, you know, the problem that elicited Mexican migration

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is that so many Mexicans are involved in agriculture, and

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that's very seasonal endeavor, and so obviously in the off

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season they have to go abroad. So wouldn't it be

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great if we volunteer some of our fields in northern

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Mexico for like a year long kind of production. So

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they're talking about, for example, example, like having hend farms,

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hend farms that would produce eggs a year round. Because

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they thought the problem was less that it was less

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some kind of like huge chasm between the poor and

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the rich America and Mexico and more the kind of

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the seasonal rhythms of things, right, So they were like,

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how do we create a society that's permanently employed a year.

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Long that way people don't have to go abroad.

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So anyway, that's what really kind of struck me is

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the fact that basically in the forty fifty sixties, I

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don't know today really, but like it's definitely the forty

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fifty sixties when this migration is first taking off and

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people still understand it as something that can be contained

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and malleable. They do have ideas about it. Now, of course,

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it's like, you know, there's like ten plus million Mexicans

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in the US, so you see less of that now.

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It's more about like how do we get the remittances

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bag and this kind of thing? Right, Like we're like

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too far gone, right, Aspa's so big that they can't

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there's no like plausible solution to the thing. Now, it's

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00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.240
just a fact of life that this is how it's organized.

226
00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:38.000
There's no like solving it or you know, this is

227
00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:40.480
just kind of like we're in a completely different era.

228
00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:43.440
But for me, that's what was fascinating, kind of going

229
00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:46.480
to this moment where there's still a moment of possibility

230
00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:48.840
in the world, right, and the moment of possibility for

231
00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:51.799
Mexico to structure itself in a way that will not

232
00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:53.559
lead to migration. But of course it doesn't come to

233
00:10:53.559 --> 00:10:56.000
pass for a variety of reasons. And you know, if

234
00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.039
you guys won't we can talk about concrete stories and

235
00:10:58.080 --> 00:10:58.639
that sort of thing.

236
00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:03.399
Yeah, it was super interesting to read about all the

237
00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:07.799
different ways that Mexico tried to, I guess, put a

238
00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:10.639
stop to out migration. It was the first time I

239
00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:14.320
really read something from Mexico's point of view in trying

240
00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:16.159
to deal with those things. I remember the first time

241
00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:17.759
I had seen something about it was when I was

242
00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:21.320
reading doctor Kelly leidol Ananda's book, and she talked about

243
00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:26.360
briefly about like Mexico trying to push for like patriotism

244
00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:30.279
and rallying like the citizens to come up with ways

245
00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:34.080
to get people to stay. And of course yearbook was

246
00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:36.000
so much more in depth about that, And yeah, it

247
00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:38.639
was interesting to see all the different ways that they

248
00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:41.519
they tried to deal with it, and ultimately it seems

249
00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:44.600
like from the eighties onwards kind of just relentive to

250
00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:45.480
out migration.

251
00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:49.960
Yeah, I mean there's there happened books that like begin

252
00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:52.960
to dip their toes into the Mexican context, and then

253
00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:55.120
ultimately they always come up with this kind of conclusion

254
00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:59.559
that the Mexican government and largely Mexican society were kind

255
00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:00.879
of ambivalent about the migration.

256
00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:01.159
Right.

257
00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:04.000
You know, they recognize the boons, but they also kind

258
00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:07.240
of recognize the downsides. And you know that that's true

259
00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:10.000
as far as it goes. But what that doesn't capture

260
00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:13.919
is how like political tides intensify a particular moments, right.

261
00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:15.480
And again we know this from the American side, right,

262
00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:19.120
Like America is also a country that's ambivalent about immigration. Rightly,

263
00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:21.399
you know, some people want it, some people don't want

264
00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:24.360
But once you're living in it, you know that there

265
00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.360
are moments in which one of the two feelings rises, right,

266
00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.200
either the feeling of like, let's welcome the immigrants or

267
00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:31.320
the feeling more commonly, of let's give rid of all

268
00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:31.840
these immigrants.

269
00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:33.480
Right, The same thing happens on the Mexican side. Right.

270
00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:36.200
There are concrete moments right where the pressure builds up

271
00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:39.919
internally such that people within Mexico and specialist politicians feel

272
00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:41.840
like they're pressure to act, they need to actually go

273
00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:44.960
out there and talk about publicly keeping people within Mexico.

274
00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:46.600
And so that's really on the first half of the

275
00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:49.159
book is building up to that first big moment where

276
00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:52.000
the Mexican state or the pri really kind of begins

277
00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:54.919
to sense and feel this kind of pressure emanating from

278
00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:57.679
the public. It comes from a variety of sources and reasons,

279
00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:00.159
or for a variety of reasons. Main one though, is

280
00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:02.279
that increasingly in the forties and fifties, there's all this

281
00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:05.360
kind of newspaper coverage both about the percelle migration and

282
00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:08.080
the undocumented migration that grows alongside with it, and all

283
00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:10.919
of it essentially compares in one way or another, this

284
00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:14.639
mass migration to being or dilutes this migration to being animalistic,

285
00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:17.600
right to the migrants being essentially beast of burden in

286
00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:19.960
the United States. You know, some of the newspaper headlines

287
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:22.600
that caught my attention were like one that said, you know,

288
00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:27.360
Malo and Stasias, right, so you know, and these these

289
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:30.120
are not like these are not like minor stories, and

290
00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:31.960
like page ten, this is like the front cover of

291
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:35.519
like extensio laignon. And so this is how Mexicans are

292
00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:38.039
in their public discourse, right, This is like this is

293
00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:40.000
the Iran War of their there, this is like front

294
00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.159
and center, right, And by certainly by nineteen fifty three,

295
00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:44.399
nineteen fifty four, this is beginning to creep up even

296
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:45.279
into popular culture.

297
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:45.519
Right.

298
00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.759
There's a movie that's made in ninety fifty three that's

299
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:51.840
it releases the Delayed on purpose by the Mexican government

300
00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:54.120
because they think it's actually going to like undermine the

301
00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:57.080
reputation of the government. That one's called the Espadas Mahalas, Right,

302
00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.000
And this movie is the mahalas Is. The whole theme is, right,

303
00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:03.440
is a migrant being exploited by this guy, mister Sterling, Right,

304
00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:05.639
And in the end it's about how the migrant gets

305
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:07.279
retribution on mister Sterling.

306
00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:09.519
By well, I don't want to spoil the movie, but

307
00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:11.279
I kind of watch it. Yeah, yeah.

308
00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:13.720
But then the point is that by this point in

309
00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:15.919
Mexican history, right, people are like, well, first of all,

310
00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:18.320
you can have a director or a screenwriter coming up

311
00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:21.000
with this story right about you know, migrant oppression and

312
00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:24.919
using violence as the kind of catharsists for that, and

313
00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:26.639
second of all, that the Mexican state is actually aware

314
00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:28.799
of this, right, that they're monitoring some of the cultural

315
00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:31.240
products and things. I actually know this, you know, this

316
00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:34.440
reflects poorly on US as a government managing migration.

317
00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:34.799
Right.

318
00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:37.799
There's other fifty four as well, Beteran Fund that comes

319
00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:40.240
out with a song called Ganto the Brasero and this

320
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:42.080
is kind of like this song, this is like very

321
00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:44.759
sad song that you could like imagine people drinking beers too, right,

322
00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:48.120
that's all about kind of the the sadness of being

323
00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:50.440
a bracero and how they're discriminated in the US. And

324
00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:52.720
so this more and more begins to kind of saturate

325
00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:56.679
people's public imagination about what the migration really is about.

326
00:14:57.159 --> 00:14:59.080
It also doesn't help the Mexican government that by nineteen

327
00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:01.360
fifty four, a lot of the in the Latin America,

328
00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:04.039
a lot of attention is on the US and its

329
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:06.399
actions at Guatemala. There are a lot of rumors going on,

330
00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:09.080
right that the US is going to intervene in Guatemala

331
00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:11.639
to depose Cowater events. And so there's a lot of

332
00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:13.399
sense Its like a lot of these things and emotions

333
00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:16.480
are coming together in public discord right, people are basically

334
00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:17.960
asking the Mexican government, like, what are you going to

335
00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:20.519
do about this bully to the north that seems to

336
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.360
be drawing on this labor suppwarding it not respecting the

337
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:27.120
rights that are embedded in the Pracerio Agreement, the Guestsburger Agreement,

338
00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:31.960
not respecting undocumented workers, of course, and they're basic human rights.

339
00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:34.399
And again, but in the context of this kind of

340
00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:38.879
broader US Latin American imperial relationship, that also kind of

341
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.639
becomes front in center by nineteen fifty four, and so

342
00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:43.399
that's really when the Mexican government decides to kind of

343
00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:45.639
try to put an initial pause.

344
00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:47.879
On the migration. In ninety fifty four Genuar ninety fifty four.

345
00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:52.720
Particular, it closes the border gates at various points of

346
00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:55.759
exit that are shared with the United States. This sounds

347
00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:58.559
difficult in the abstract, it's actually not that hard in

348
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:01.440
practice because it's not like there's not like a chaos

349
00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:03.360
when it comes to Mexican migration, at least in ninte fifties.

350
00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.399
It follows very predictable patterns and rhythms, and so by

351
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.360
January nineteen fifty four, most people in Mexico that are

352
00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.279
migrating are headed to Mexicali, right because they want to

353
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.879
partake in the lettuce harvest that's about to take place

354
00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:17.399
in the Imperial Valley in southern California. And so the

355
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:20.320
Mexican government decides to zero in its efforts on closing

356
00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:20.840
the line there.

357
00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:21.039
Right.

358
00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:23.840
Their arguments to Mexican migrants is that they can no

359
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:26.639
longer sanction Mexican migration to the US because if people

360
00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:28.440
continue to go to the US there will be so

361
00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.559
many complaints but at the consular office that Mexico won't

362
00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:33.559
be able to handle it. Right, So Mexico very much

363
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:35.600
takes this paternalistic ethos right. They're like, you know, we're

364
00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:37.039
going to take care of you, this sort of thing,

365
00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:39.120
and it asks migrants to just basically head back.

366
00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.919
Right. Of course, migrants don't. Many of them don't listen

367
00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:42.399
to that. Right.

368
00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.200
For as much as Mexico perceives them and the media

369
00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:47.879
perceives them as being oppressed, they value very much of

370
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:49.240
their mobility. They just kind of want to go to

371
00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:51.679
the US and obtain their wages, especially because many of

372
00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:54.279
them had come from Central Mexico. So they're really betting

373
00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:56.799
on going to the US. To like you know, like

374
00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:58.960
recover their savings and kind of begin to build their

375
00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:01.480
economic resources. So they have very little patience for whatever

376
00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:03.840
the Mexican government is saying about. You know, uh, this

377
00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:05.839
is the one in the life some opportunity to change

378
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:08.000
things in Mexico. Yeaha YadA. And the Mexican state does

379
00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:10.480
recognize this, right, they recognize that these promises of like

380
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.000
impending reform are a little bit remote and abstract, So

381
00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:18.599
they send Governor Bradio Madonado bac California to talk to

382
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:21.880
the migrants. The reason they send Governor Bradio Madalado is

383
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:25.000
because he himself had been a migrant as a child, right,

384
00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:27.839
So they're like, so they the state recognizes that, like

385
00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.160
you know, actually they're sending like a you know what

386
00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:32.359
in Mexico City they call it like the Goadinas, like

387
00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:34.559
like this kind of like upper middle class white guy, uh,

388
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:36.559
to talk to the to the to the to the presence.

389
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:38.519
That might not be a great idea, but they figured

390
00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:40.160
maybe if we send this guy there's like brown guy

391
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:41.880
who's been in the US as.

392
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:43.880
A child, maybe that will connect and make it click

393
00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:44.680
more with the migrants.

394
00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:46.519
So he does a bunch of stump speeches in Mexicali

395
00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:49.240
and admonishing the migrants, asking them to really consider that

396
00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:51.839
this is an actually tremendous moment in the history of Mexico

397
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:55.960
where the state can finally like reflect on this process

398
00:17:55.960 --> 00:17:57.720
and like find a new way forward.

399
00:17:58.039 --> 00:17:58.200
Uh.

400
00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:00.559
In the book, I call it like a sovereign It's

401
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.559
like it's like like almost like you never get this

402
00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:05.839
chance to actually stop Like I magine you can stop

403
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:07.200
climate change for like five seconds and be.

404
00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:10.160
Like like you will never really think about this, guys.

405
00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.920
Yeah, yeah, you have like x period of time to

406
00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.119
like freeze this phenomenon, right and really see what are

407
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:18.960
the best solutions you can possibly generate. Right. That's what

408
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.720
makes Mexico at least argues right is transpiring here in

409
00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:25.960
nineteen fifty four. So a lot of it, a lot

410
00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:27.519
of the attention is at the border. They are also

411
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:31.039
movements within Mexico away from the border itself to encourage

412
00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:34.000
people to stay at home. So, you know, various organizations,

413
00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:37.319
especially like prominent leaders within individual communities in Mexico, like

414
00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:42.759
church leaders, political leaders, business leaders. They basically formed these

415
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.000
what they call citizen brigades where they go knocking door

416
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:47.440
to door on the house, on the doors of every

417
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:50.640
family in like un you cpo, and they're asking that

418
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:52.920
they're basically try to have It's almost like they're canvassing, right,

419
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:55.559
They're like knocking the door and they're like, yeah, you know,

420
00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.359
has anybody here migrated before? Would you please stop for

421
00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:07.400
like so, yeah, it's a real it's kind of like

422
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:11.599
a weird internal sensus, right that the Mexican state conducts

423
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:14.480
in this moment. And so you know, in the context

424
00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:16.799
of all this kind of feeling out, the Mexican State

425
00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:19.880
also begins to form internally all these various plans for

426
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:23.079
how to integrate migrants within the national sphere. You know,

427
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:25.799
I found documents, really like very long documents pertaining to

428
00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:29.079
their idea to create a new permanent federal agency with

429
00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:31.400
the the Mexican government that would be permanently tasked.

430
00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:34.039
With reducing migration to zero over the long run.

431
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:37.000
And they talk very plainly about how the migration is

432
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:38.640
routed in economics.

433
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:39.799
And they talk about, you know the importance.

434
00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:44.640
Of increasing subsidies to the helos and to competinos more generally. Uh,

435
00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:47.039
And they lay out plans even about like who they

436
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:48.839
will get priority to. So they talk about you know,

437
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:50.880
married men will get more points. They even develop a

438
00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:52.559
whole points system about you know, once we get these

439
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:54.519
applications in who's going to go to the front of

440
00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:56.960
the line and this sort of thing. And ultimately this

441
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.400
kind of all gets caught up or summarized in a

442
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.680
slogan that President other photos Scortinas at the time comes

443
00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:05.599
up with, and that's Mexicans for the fields of Mexico.

444
00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:07.000
Right, that's kind of his vision night.

445
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.400
And so it's kind of like this magap moment, but

446
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:11.079
like in reverse, right, right, Like Mexico's like, you know,

447
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:13.599
we want to keep them in here. And again it's

448
00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.680
all rhetorical. It's like, yes, there are plans being made,

449
00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:19.799
and but to the microans there's like they're going, it's

450
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:21.200
cast us in the sky, right, It's not to them,

451
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:24.960
it's not necessarily something that has real teeth to it. Then,

452
00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:26.519
so far as they know the Mexican state, they know,

453
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:28.880
I mean to your podcast point, they know the Mexican

454
00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:31.079
state as a corrupt state. The state that they have

455
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:33.319
interfaced with up to that point is the state that

456
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:36.079
for example will accept one of them, well, accept bribes

457
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:37.359
for them to then go as service.

458
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:38.599
Right, it's not the state.

459
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.759
It's not this like utopic state that like somehow plans

460
00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:45.359
things and there's like revolutionary and you know, deliver social programs.

461
00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:47.039
That's not the state that they know.

462
00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:50.640
So they're very they're very much cynical about like the

463
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:53.279
possibilities of performing this particular moment.

464
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:54.559
But be it as it may.

465
00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:57.599
Ultimately, you know, nineteen fifty four and this moment really

466
00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:02.000
unravels in Mexico, largely because the US does experience this

467
00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:04.920
as a threat, right, because again, you know, the US

468
00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.000
kind of has this kind of on and off again

469
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:09.880
relationship with Mexican migrant labor, but in nineteen fifty four,

470
00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:11.799
it's definitely on a relationship.

471
00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:12.000
Right.

472
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.440
They do need this microant labor to pick precisely those

473
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:17.640
crops that I was referring to in the Imperial Valley,

474
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:19.880
the lettuce crop, right. And the key thing, of course

475
00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:22.839
with letters as a form like a commodity, is that

476
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.039
you can't just put that off, right, Like if it

477
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:25.839
doesn't get picked.

478
00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:27.799
It just rots, right, yeah, and lose all that value. Right.

479
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.160
So like basically the US nineteen fifty four says it's like,

480
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:31.640
you know, yeah, that's cute and all, but like we

481
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:35.160
need these migrants to come here to pick this letters, right,

482
00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:37.839
irrespective of what you're talking about about once in a

483
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:38.599
lifetime opportunity.

484
00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:39.839
Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

485
00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:42.599
But we as the Department of Labor need these migrants

486
00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:45.039
to come in because we have become accustomed to them. Right.

487
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:47.759
By nineteen fifty four, there is just a deep not

488
00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:50.279
just even reliance, but entitlement to Mexican migrant labor.

489
00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:50.480
Right.

490
00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:53.559
The American state feels like those are their workers, right.

491
00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:55.200
And so again it's so fascinated to live in the

492
00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:58.599
present ERAa where they kind of disavow and we like

493
00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:01.559
they we are the victims of the migrants because they

494
00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:07.000
come up if you rewind to many points in this history, right, actually,

495
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.519
you are doing everything in your power right to make

496
00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:12.759
sure that there is this kind of permanent relationship between

497
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:16.000
the US and Mexican migrants. It's ultimately the decision that

498
00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:18.640
the Department of Labor arrives at in nineteen fifty four

499
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:20.279
is to declare an open border.

500
00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:20.440
Right.

501
00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:23.400
They say, any able bodied male, able and Williams to

502
00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:25.400
come to the United States is welcome to America. Right.

503
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.119
And beyond this they wave kind of customary inspections at

504
00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:31.279
the border, so that won't do any health checks or

505
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:34.319
anything like that. Famously, the preservers were like subject to

506
00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:37.240
like umigation with DDT and all kinds of stuff. The

507
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.519
US basically says, none of that, just come through, Just

508
00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:42.079
come through with a warm body something.

509
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:43.720
It's just so crazy to think about. Now.

510
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:45.799
Yeah, yeah, they're like, forget page that. You don't got

511
00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:47.359
to do nothing. You just gotta show up here. Look

512
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:50.000
Mexican talk Spanish, and you will you know, and we

513
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:53.200
will let you in right to America to pick the

514
00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:54.039
lettuce crap. Right.

515
00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:58.559
And so this complete suspension right then of normal immigration

516
00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:01.480
protocol in this moment. That's what I mean about, like

517
00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:03.720
history is about moments. Right, this sets off like an

518
00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:06.200
emotional hysteria in Mexico. Like all the newspapers are like,

519
00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:09.039
oh my god, what's going to happen. It's like the

520
00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:10.519
way I'm describe it in the book is that they're

521
00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:13.400
basically descend into visions of like migratory apocalypse where they're

522
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.359
like everybody's gonna leave because they're like, you know, who wouldn't, right,

523
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:20.160
Like you know, they're opening the gates and like and

524
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:22.519
you know, people, all the business leaders are a lot

525
00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:24.599
of bit prominent business organizations are like, yeah, no, this

526
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:26.759
is the end of the Mexican economy. And at the time,

527
00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:29.079
actually the Mexican economy is doing relatively well in terms

528
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:31.559
of like the macro terms. Yeah, they're like, this is

529
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:33.440
the end of the Mexican miracles. It is like, you know,

530
00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:36.559
the positive trajectory of Mexico will be completely undone by

531
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:38.480
this moment. And so that's that's a lot of the

532
00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:40.640
kind of the musings that emerge in Mexico in the

533
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:43.240
aftermath of the open border. Ultimately doesn't turn out to

534
00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:45.720
be the case that all of Mexico leaves. You know, again,

535
00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.759
that's not as I mentioned earlier, even though politicians would

536
00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:50.960
ever you think otherwise. There is a structure to the system, right,

537
00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:54.119
It's not just very a very massive system, but they're

538
00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:57.000
still structure to it. And so ultimately about like fifteen

539
00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.200
thousand people show up to make gali at that kind

540
00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:02.920
of the height of this this open border call. But

541
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:04.960
those that do show up, they show up with every

542
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:07.240
intention to cross that border, right, and so this basically

543
00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:08.480
becomes the final stand for Mexico.

544
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:09.880
Right, Mexico has to.

545
00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:13.319
Decide how far will it go to actually police this

546
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:18.880
internal decision to foment kind of rootedness within Mexico in particular,

547
00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:20.799
the question is, of course, you know, to what extent

548
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:23.200
will rely upon violence, let's say, to keep migrants in,

549
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:26.200
and ultimately the Mexican state does attempt to fight back

550
00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:29.400
against some of these migrants, I'll break up skirmishes between

551
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:32.720
the about there's about two thousand soldiers stationed in Mexicali

552
00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:34.960
in this particular moment, and there's a lot of soldiers

553
00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:35.480
because that's.

554
00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:36.039
A very small town.

555
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:38.079
This is not like, this is not like New York

556
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:41.079
City's I'm talking about, like, this is very small small town.

557
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:44.839
So two thousand soldiers versus fifteen thousand microans basically what

558
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.839
we get in this situation. And you know the result

559
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:49.799
is that we are many injuries and up to one

560
00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:53.279
death as a result of these skirmishes that break out

561
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:55.680
at the border. And this is really the moment where

562
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:58.960
Mexico basically does a complete three sixty on its discourse

563
00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:02.880
and decide, you know, it can't actually continue with the

564
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:06.079
project of keeping Mexicans in, even if it arguates for

565
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:08.880
their own sake, or particularly if it's arguing it's for

566
00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:11.440
their own sake because there's just this basic disjuncture.

567
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:11.599
Right.

568
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:14.440
You can't say we're protecting people from being abused in

569
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:16.720
the US while then you're killing them.

570
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:18.200
To stop them from keep them.

571
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:24.039
It doesn't as they say, yeah, yeah, the optors were

572
00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:26.000
not good. So the Mexican state basically desists.

573
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:29.440
And you know there's in the book there's these images

574
00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:31.680
of the micros. Then once they get to cross the

575
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:34.200
open border, right, and the Mexican state steps to aside,

576
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:35.119
and they're all just.

577
00:25:35.079 --> 00:25:37.880
Like cheering, and they're like, yeah, they're so happy that.

578
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:38.559
Uh.

579
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:40.279
I talk about the book.

580
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:42.880
They experienced this as a moment of emancipation, right, which

581
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:45.519
again kind of completely goes like, I mean, part of

582
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:47.000
why I love the stories because it kind of goes

583
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.839
against the way you usually think about the Brasels, right, Like, yeah,

584
00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:52.799
you're the kind of supremely exploited labor who have best

585
00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:55.880
find like silver linings in the US. Right, That's not

586
00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:57.079
what you see in this particular moment.

587
00:25:57.160 --> 00:25:57.240
Right.

588
00:25:57.279 --> 00:25:59.240
They're like just so ecstatic to like take advantage of

589
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:03.039
this moment to disregard this kind of internal push within

590
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:05.960
Mexico as being essentially kind of like empty, right, uh,

591
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.920
And to go based on what they knew to be true,

592
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:10.680
that you know, the best way forward for them was

593
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:11.880
to rely on themselves in each other.

594
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:12.599
Uh.

595
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.640
You know, you don't need one state or the other.

596
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.920
You couldn't really buy into whatever one state or the

597
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:18.960
other was selling at any given moment.

598
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:19.200
Right.

599
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:21.640
And so you know, of course, the kicker here is

600
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:25.079
that these images end up producing a little bit of

601
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:26.839
bad press on the American side because now that now

602
00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:28.640
the image on the US side is that the US

603
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:32.279
doesn't have control over the border, right, uh, flooding in right.

604
00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:34.720
And basically the US tries.

605
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:36.680
To like impose the system where they only allow five

606
00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:39.319
hundred people to come into America every day because that's

607
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:41.319
all they need for their their lettuce crop. But the

608
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:44.119
Mexican Marcans they don't respect that. They're like, you told

609
00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:48.559
the governments and now you're changing my mind. Uh and

610
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:51.039
so so so they keep on jumping through and they

611
00:26:51.160 --> 00:26:52.279
just kids kind of chaos.

612
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:52.640
Uh.

613
00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:54.240
And so that's how we end up having a a

614
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:57.279
new per salale program, right because basically both in the Mexico.

615
00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:59.480
Americas say, yeah, we kind of messed up with that.

616
00:26:59.680 --> 00:26:59.759
Right.

617
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:03.240
Let's actually get it's a lot cooler, but we were

618
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:06.440
just both kind of like you know, arranges migration and

619
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.319
then you know, let them document the migration kind of

620
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:09.160
happen on the side.

621
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:11.119
And so that's finally how you get to back back

622
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:12.039
to the per sale program.

623
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.319
But not before you have this moment in ninety fifty

624
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:17.359
four where Mexico really does go deep into the contemplation

625
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.480
of political responses to migration, and most of all again

626
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:24.079
even beyond like the political responses and like the mammos

627
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:26.359
and all stuff, just that the emotional tide right had

628
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.680
turned severely in this moment against migration right. But as

629
00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:32.359
a result of this situation, a lot of the kind

630
00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:34.640
of the newspaper coverage really begins to shift when it

631
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.079
comes to migrants, Like literally in the days after this,

632
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:39.559
once it is all done, they begin to refer to

633
00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:42.599
the migrants as filth right, as people who have you know,

634
00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:45.960
spin upon their nation right, because against they're coming off

635
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:47.119
this emotional take.

636
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:49.960
A betrayal to like you're leaving your country.

637
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:51.759
Yeah exactly, they're like, we thought we were finally kind

638
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:53.480
of going to make some headway on this, and now

639
00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:55.480
it turns out that these migrants are just like here

640
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:57.960
for the quick book and like you know, they answer

641
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.920
the metaphor they use that they into the siren call

642
00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:03.519
of the US right, that they're lowed by the siren

643
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:04.480
call of the American dollar.

644
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:05.640
Uh, and that sort of thing.

645
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:08.119
That's so interesting because I don't I don't know why

646
00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:10.039
they just popped in my head, but says that Travis

647
00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:12.359
had like the same view about the up.

648
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:12.880
In the book.

649
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:16.799
Oh yeah, I only read part of it because I've

650
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:19.799
been sick, but yeah, that was just thinking this whole time.

651
00:28:20.119 --> 00:28:21.799
These are like the words that our Travis, we're saying

652
00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:23.799
they only care about making a quick.

653
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:25.519
Bug, they only want to make money.

654
00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:28.240
But it's like, well, yeah, they're trying to We all

655
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:30.279
need money, yeah, to survive.

656
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:33.480
Yeah, I mean, it's it's I mean, I think I

657
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:34.039
think that many.

658
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:37.680
I mean, we're entirely entering like counterfactual territory, and I

659
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.759
can't really entirely of mics, but like, I mean, I

660
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:43.200
think many of them would have been disposed to entertain

661
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:46.039
some of these calls for political reform. It's again just

662
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:47.799
that the Mexican state, and in fact, some of the

663
00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:49.400
people that do write to the Mexican government in this

664
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:51.519
moment are precisely people who have migreated in the past,

665
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:53.880
but they also have ideas about how to create perman

666
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:56.680
So like there is this hunger for for political reform.

667
00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:00.599
It's just it's the PR is just not the believable

668
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:03.599
vessel vessel for that change. In fact, like for example,

669
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.680
and I believe I mean to be candid, I think

670
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:09.759
that they were right, you know, like you know, when

671
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:11.960
you have this Mexican's for Mexico program. Part of what

672
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:14.160
the US the Mexican government does is that it offers

673
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:18.720
migrants in Megali to be relocated to colonias, new colonias

674
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:22.200
that they argue the pr I will support. I only

675
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:25.240
found one group that actually are two groups that went

676
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:28.200
on board with the with this plan for to be

677
00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:31.400
moved to a different part of Mexico instead of their

678
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.200
Agraian settlement there the colonia with state support.

679
00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:36.079
And I include the picture in the book. It's a

680
00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:37.039
group of like thirty.

681
00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:40.519
Or forty men and they're sent to Labasalli Fortia, which

682
00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:42.480
is basically a coastal town. And just the fact that

683
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:44.119
they send them there tells you a lot about how

684
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:46.279
the Mexican States planning is right, because they send them

685
00:29:46.279 --> 00:29:49.839
there because there's water nearby and so they're like, we'll

686
00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:53.200
be back here one day, we promise with everything you need,

687
00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:54.200
like the seas.

688
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:54.400
And the machine.

689
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:55.920
In the meantime, just fish.

690
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:57.640
But in the meantime, shower their fish there and like.

691
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:02.079
So it's like and yeah, so like again like I

692
00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:03.720
don't know, I wasn't able to follow that story the

693
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:06.200
way through, but like you know that that's not exactly

694
00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:09.920
like state support, right, Like yeah, like I don't know,

695
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:11.960
I don't know what I would do with my I mean,

696
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:13.680
I'm sure some of the markets figured it out, but like,

697
00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:15.759
what would I do if like the state drops me

698
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:17.759
in this like it's not like they're from there, just

699
00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:20.440
drops you in this random place in black and argues

700
00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:22.440
that it's going to come back one day. Right, It

701
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.000
just doesn't seem like the most reasonable thing to get

702
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:28.160
on board with, especially because there are people back home

703
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:32.279
right waiting on your dollars, right, waiting on contributions, and

704
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.640
some people have been waiting there for quite a bit

705
00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:36.599
of time. It's not uncommon for people to be waiting

706
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:38.160
at the border towns for like two three months for

707
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:41.119
a contract. And so yeah, yeah, I can see why

708
00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:43.759
critics on either the American or the Mexican side would

709
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.119
think the migrants are I guess the simple way this

710
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:48.279
is like too more simple way to say this would

711
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:50.519
be the think about them as being too much materialistic.

712
00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:52.839
But you know, as you guys are saying, right, it's

713
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:54.640
just the reality of things, right, Like a lot of

714
00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:58.000
times these microants moved even with investments from their family, right,

715
00:30:58.039 --> 00:31:01.000
like people would pawn earings or like sell mules. Like

716
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:03.160
they're not just responding to themselves, they're responding to like

717
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.359
a whole social organism, right that has like organized itself

718
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:09.279
around this idea that you go out there and you

719
00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:11.240
come back with the with the good. You can't you

720
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:12.680
can't come back and be like, oh, I actually know

721
00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:15.240
it turns out we sold our border for nothing because

722
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:18.039
you know, actually the Mexican state promises that in five years,

723
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:20.599
you know, it'll work out and there'll be economic opportunities

724
00:31:20.599 --> 00:31:23.960
that it just doesn't kind of isn't realistic. Having said that, though,

725
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:25.960
I do think I do think it's important to highlight

726
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:30.079
how the US completely ignores, right these political developments in Mexico, right,

727
00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:33.039
how it does have this brazen entitlement, even if even

728
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:34.880
if it might have failed on its own terms, there

729
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:37.640
is this point that the US kind of kills this moment.

730
00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:39.960
This kills us in its crib, right, it doesn't really

731
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:42.640
allow it to mature into anything kind of interesting or

732
00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:45.880
more fleshed out. And I do think we'd had to

733
00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:49.319
recognize that limitation, especially for Mexican politicians. Right, it's not

734
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:53.519
like they're kind of coming up in policies with the freedom.

735
00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:55.559
I know, I call it a sovereign pause, but it's

736
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:57.519
not really a pause. It's a very rushed pause.

737
00:31:57.559 --> 00:32:00.720
Right. They do feel this like America's breeding right behind them,

738
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:02.640
being like, well, if you don't want those migrants, we

739
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:04.440
want them, right, and so like there is a kind

740
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:07.279
of pressure right that they are also kind of operating

741
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:08.880
with it, and so I do think that led them

742
00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:11.559
to come up with policies that were not necessarily that

743
00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:12.920
well fleshed out and kind of.

744
00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:15.200
Like they had to rush because they were fighting against

745
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.440
the allure of the American dollars.

746
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:18.400
Yeah, yeah, they were.

747
00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:20.680
They were just like, yeah, they were like fighting against

748
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:22.680
a lure of the American dollar and the active actions

749
00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:24.880
of the American state, and so they were kind of

750
00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:26.920
just like, yeah, let's leave with the slogans, let's kind

751
00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.480
of let's try to win the battle over over the

752
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:32.480
hearts first, and then we may maybe we can try

753
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:34.519
to like win the rational battle over policy, right, But

754
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.039
they really, actually, I would say, emphasize more of this

755
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:39.720
kind of the the emotional valance of migration rate.

756
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:41.680
Basically, the idea was nineteen.

757
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:43.960
To four was you know, today I think us, you know,

758
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:46.079
like the way is the way to like make your

759
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:48.839
make Mexico is to just stay. And that's kind of

760
00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:52.519
really what they leaned on. Again, it turns out maybe

761
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:56.000
not the greatest calculation, but that's kind of the calculus

762
00:32:56.039 --> 00:32:59.240
that the state seemed to have emerged in in nineteen

763
00:32:59.279 --> 00:32:59.759
fifty four.

764
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:03.480
They and they didn't have the time that is necessary

765
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:07.000
to change an entire country to get people to stay.

766
00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:10.920
Like now we're seeing, you know, all these money for students,

767
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:16.599
for the elderly, more programs, social programs in Mexico, and

768
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:18.799
people are not leaving. I do all like they used too,

769
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:23.559
because Mexico has done the work and they're still obviously improving.

770
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:25.920
But that was not possible at the.

771
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:29.119
Time, and so with people leaving as fast as they were,

772
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.400
like it took time to get to Mexico where they

773
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:31.799
are now.

774
00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:34.960
And with people like now returning instead of like leaving.

775
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:37.480
Yeah, and it's it's it's.

776
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:41.480
I mean, the there's a there's a compete Africa his

777
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:43.599
name that made a joke about the border one time

778
00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:45.920
that like, by the time America's don't building, it'll be

779
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:47.960
the Americans jumping over that border to get into Mexico.

780
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:52.400
Maybe there's something to that, right, but yeah, yeah, I

781
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:54.319
do like that point that basically it's it's I mean,

782
00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:56.160
basically it took a changing of the guard in Mexico

783
00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:59.200
actually for those conditions to have rate, because the pri

784
00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.000
Is ruled eventually kind of came undone. And now we're

785
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:05.960
living in a new era right under the Shamba, and

786
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.639
you're seeing kind of these more policies that are more

787
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:10.360
about kind of social welfare and this sort of thing,

788
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:14.880
and a party that is not as kind of admired

789
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:17.559
by a bad reputation. Uh So people are will not

790
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:19.559
that everybody's willing to believe, but more people are willing

791
00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:21.360
to believe right that there will be this kind of

792
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:24.480
long term sustainability behind the policies, that this will create

793
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:27.159
kind of long term change and and and a lot

794
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:28.360
of what helps is of course that some of these

795
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:30.360
policies have been tried out before at a small level,

796
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:31.960
Like you know, nobod I thought it was in charge

797
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:33.719
of Mexico City, right, he implemented a lot of kind of.

798
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:35.480
Social work for programs. Uh.

799
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:38.159
For example, aron like bring employment to elderly people. Right,

800
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:40.920
So they have built in capital, like political capital, right.

801
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:43.079
Like people people can believe them because they're like, oh,

802
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:45.880
we saw you deployed this at a small scale of Mexico,

803
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:49.039
but actually a huge small scale in Mexico City, and

804
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.840
so we can believe how maybe you might like extrapolate

805
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:53.360
that same experiment at national level.

806
00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:53.559
Right.

807
00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:56.719
The pri and the forties didn't have that, right. Actually,

808
00:34:56.719 --> 00:34:59.079
what they had was more the reputation of not living

809
00:34:59.119 --> 00:34:59.800
up to their promises.

810
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:00.000
Right.

811
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:02.920
So in particular, this is not living up to the

812
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:06.559
ideals of the revolution and you know, redistributing land and

813
00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:07.320
this this sort of thing.

814
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:07.559
Right.

815
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:09.519
So a lot of it has to do with just

816
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:12.639
the pr I lacks credibility in ninety forty, ninety fifties, right.

817
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.000
I think the present president government, though it does have

818
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:17.559
its kind of enemies and it's unpopular within certain spheres

819
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:20.159
of society, has more of that kind of like good

820
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:21.880
will of course, you know in ten twenty years with

821
00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:23.159
check in people.

822
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:25.559
The same place, right.

823
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:28.360
But interestingly, part of I will find interesting is that

824
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:31.559
none of usually those policies are not sold that as

825
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:35.760
policies to stop migration, right like Mexico's migratory policy, and

826
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:39.480
the present is more of like just like pray to

827
00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:40.440
God that Trump.

828
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:41.760
Doesn't depport that many people.

829
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:43.840
Like it's more of like it's more of like it

830
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.840
just like if I stay quiet, yeah, like maybe they

831
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:51.039
won't notice me. Like it's kind of like that, right,

832
00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:54.480
and you know, Shamebon talks about like you know this

833
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:56.400
and you know, but it's very like it's more like

834
00:35:56.440 --> 00:35:59.519
discursive not rather than like policy wise, I think they

835
00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:01.559
give him like a bus ride back to the interior,

836
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:02.119
this sort of thing.

837
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:03.360
But again there's not kind of like.

838
00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:08.400
A robust vision of us try to integrate Mexican. Yeah,

839
00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:10.599
that's that's not kind of like the vision that their

840
00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:11.519
leading was at the moment.

841
00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:17.239
It was also super interesting to read about, and we've

842
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:19.639
been talking a little bit about it, like the migrants,

843
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:21.840
like we tend to think of migrants as like you

844
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:24.920
said before, like in a press group, but you talk

845
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.760
a lot in the book about their agency and when

846
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:31.960
they came together to write letters and campaign to like

847
00:36:32.039 --> 00:36:36.199
certain Mexican officials, and how they didn't fall for the

848
00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:39.880
I guess the Mexican government like trying to push them

849
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:42.320
to stay because they were more familiar with the corruption

850
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:46.079
of BED and they're like, we already know what the

851
00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:47.960
United States is, like, we already know what to expect,

852
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.880
Like we tell each other, you know who to avoid

853
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.519
and who to work for and whatnot, Like they I

854
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:55.880
guess it was just really cool to see their agency

855
00:36:55.960 --> 00:36:57.000
highlighted in the book.

856
00:36:57.639 --> 00:36:59.199
Yeah, they have they have their own again.

857
00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:01.840
People a lot of people are very dismissive, even people

858
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:05.440
like within, like we have family members who are Mexican

859
00:37:05.559 --> 00:37:08.559
or migrants whatever. It's easy to kind of get misled

860
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:10.639
by the idea that it's all unskilled labor. And it's

861
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:13.320
kind of thing because basically micros had their own very

862
00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:17.079
like complex geography of like wages and crops and weather systems.

863
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:19.519
So for them, it wasn't you wouldn't be useful to

864
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:22.280
think about themselves as being flatly oppressed. Right for them,

865
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:24.079
it would be useful to think, you know, which of

866
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:25.280
these jobs is worse than the others.

867
00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:27.920
Actually that's how most people think, right, we.

868
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.320
Don't go around thinking like in a way, we're all

869
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:32.079
kind of oppressed parts of the working class, but we

870
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:35.719
don't like you know that that that boss sucked and

871
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:38.159
you know, I've never worked for her again, Like you

872
00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:39.800
know that That basically how the micros worked, right, Like

873
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:42.280
they had kind of familiarity with specific foremen, like they

874
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:44.280
hated Chicano foremen and that sort of thing.

875
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:46.880
Right, Oh, yeah, that was that was interesting to trade about.

876
00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:49.119
Like they said like the Chicanos and Mexican Americans were

877
00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:50.840
the worst to work for and they were like the

878
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:51.559
most abusive.

879
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:53.480
Yeah, they use that.

880
00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:56.480
That's not surprising their performance, like bullying on them to

881
00:37:56.519 --> 00:38:00.400
like you know, make themselves feel more American. That's but yeah,

882
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:02.159
it goes down to like very concrete things like even

883
00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:03.920
like you know, in Texas it's like full of rattlesnakes

884
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:06.119
there in the common fields as Like that's kind of scary, right,

885
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:07.119
we don't really want to go there.

886
00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:08.559
The Imperial Valley is.

887
00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:10.679
Like one hundred and twenty degrees and the height of

888
00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:12.320
it really that's also somewhere we don't want to go.

889
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:14.719
So to them is less about feeling bad about themselves

890
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:17.559
about being braceros or guestsworkers, and more about being sagacious

891
00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:20.559
and smart about you know, where do you want to

892
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:22.679
end up right and for how long? And you know,

893
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:25.039
how do you get to the next opportunity, So that

894
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:27.039
that's kind of more the registered what they lived in.

895
00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:29.159
And so I think that's again another big part of

896
00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:31.119
the reason why they don't necessarily buy into the Mexican

897
00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:34.159
states paternalism in this moment, right, is that by their

898
00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:37.440
lives they don't need to be saved right. They need

899
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:39.079
to be empowered, sure in some ways, but.

900
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:39.920
Not saved right.

901
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:42.760
And so I think that certainly goes a long way

902
00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:45.519
to explain that, and it also comes up later on,

903
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:48.360
you know, after nineteen fifty four, the Mexican government doesn't

904
00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:50.880
quite give up on this idea of using migrants internally,

905
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.199
as I talk about in the book, for about eight

906
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:56.119
years from like nineteen fifty five to sixty three. Basically

907
00:38:56.119 --> 00:38:59.280
they create their own internal percero program, and they basically

908
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.159
tell migrants that if they first picked two thousand kilos

909
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:05.000
of cotton in northern Mexico or work for about twenty

910
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:09.000
one weeks twenty one days in northern Mexico, whichever comes first, Uh,

911
00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:12.199
they'll be put into priority cues to leave as Bercero's right.

912
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:15.079
And so basically it's kind of like this kind of

913
00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:17.719
like blackmail as far as the micros are concerned, right,

914
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:18.119
they're like.

915
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:21.920
The work and then we get more work yea.

916
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:26.320
And so yeah, they don't really take kindly to it,

917
00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:31.840
in particular because it's actually really hard to gather two

918
00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:37.400
thousand kilos of cotton in northern Mexico because the farmers

919
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:39.960
there would often use the migrants for what was called

920
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:42.679
buleo and cueleo is basically like the last, like the

921
00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:44.239
third round of cotton picking.

922
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:47.199
Uh. And when so by the time they're doing this,

923
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.880
there's like no cotton left on that stock, right, So

924
00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:50.199
it's a.

925
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:52.719
Little bit cruel. It's like, yeah, go pick to that.

926
00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:54.519
It's not like these things are like flush and like

927
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:56.239
you're seeing the pictures right when the kind of the

928
00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:59.760
cotton is like the cotton bulbous flush, they're basically like

929
00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:01.480
pick it starts like this, this is very hard to

930
00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:04.360
actually come up with that two thousand kilos, right, So

931
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:06.639
they really experienced internal p SERL program as a very

932
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:08.039
exploitive program.

933
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:10.400
In fact, it confirms their worst.

934
00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:12.159
Suspicions about the Mexicans stay right, which is that it

935
00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:13.960
doesn't actually really care about them. It's just kind of

936
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:16.960
there to like protect itself and instrumentalize them or like

937
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:19.079
exploit them whenever it can can figure out a way

938
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:21.280
to do that. And so really kind of what ends

939
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:25.480
up driving them into like full emotional repudiation, anger and

940
00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:28.760
rejection of this program is the fact that, especially once

941
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:31.280
the program reaches its maturity around fifty nine and sixty,

942
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:33.960
many of them begin to report that Mexico doesn't.

943
00:40:33.800 --> 00:40:34.960
Even honor this agreement. Right.

944
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:37.119
They'll they will go there and work for twenty one days,

945
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.760
they'll pick two thousand kilos of con and then they'll

946
00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:41.679
just get past, like they won't actually be sent to

947
00:40:41.719 --> 00:40:44.599
the US. Right. In fact, they begin to point out

948
00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:46.199
that the people being sent to the US are people

949
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:49.239
who are paying bribes to the chief of the contracting center, right,

950
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:52.320
And they're like they're like, oh, this is this is

951
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.719
no program, this is just this is the same old Mexico.

952
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:55.719
This is the whole.

953
00:40:57.400 --> 00:40:59.239
Tedtal right, Like, this is like this is not this

954
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.480
way what And so they they really kind of begin

955
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:05.639
to mobilize in a very strong way they write. They

956
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:07.760
write letters to like anybody and anybody who will listen

957
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:08.079
to them.

958
00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:09.159
So they write to like.

959
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:13.639
Uh, local local mayor govern the state governors, the federal

960
00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:15.800
government itself, specific people within the federal government.

961
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:16.760
Like they start getting specific.

962
00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:19.519
Really, they start like breaking it down that agency is

963
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:21.920
not responsible for this one might be. They begin trying

964
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:24.559
to figure out kind of the map of Mexican politics,

965
00:41:24.679 --> 00:41:26.719
which I think is important, right, because that difference from

966
00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:28.599
the way in which we see the politics play out

967
00:41:28.599 --> 00:41:30.920
on the American side, where like, yes, occasionally there are

968
00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:33.599
these outbursts of political mobilization, but they're kind of like

969
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:35.679
come and go where this is like a three year

970
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.599
sustained campaign where they're basically writing, uh, and kind of

971
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:40.840
trying to like find the different levels of the Mexican

972
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:44.360
government because they feel somewhat empowered as being Mexican citizens, right,

973
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:46.719
They're like, you know, we're not informant, and we're here

974
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:48.679
in our country, right, and we are being exploited by

975
00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:52.320
our government. They reach their most success when they actually

976
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:55.239
begin to reach out to the newspapers and tell their stories.

977
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:55.800
Uh.

978
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.039
And I would say their their their their peak successes

979
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:01.760
when they figure out that the move is to actually

980
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:04.760
include the newspaper articles in the letters they write to

981
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:07.199
the government because they're like, by the way, you know,

982
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:11.599
you haven't answered my letter, but so so like whatever

983
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:14.360
and so nota has picked up on the story and

984
00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:16.000
it's making the front pages there, so you might want

985
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:18.119
to start taking look at this, and so like they

986
00:42:18.199 --> 00:42:21.079
generate they like in this kind of pre social media thing, right,

987
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:24.360
they basically generating their own buzz around their own struggle

988
00:42:24.679 --> 00:42:28.639
uh in Mexico, and ultimately, through their pressure, the chief

989
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:31.960
of the contracting center actually ends up being indicted by

990
00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:34.599
the state government of so for corruption and then that

991
00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:36.920
breaks out another whole story because he ends up running

992
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.119
away to try to get away from the Dherty's and

993
00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:39.559
this whole thing.

994
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:43.199
So basically they they once again create this moment.

995
00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:45.679
Of embarrassment for the Mexican state, right where basically the

996
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:48.360
farce of Mexico protecting migrants is kind of think kind

997
00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:51.039
of completely falls apart and all we see is yet

998
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:53.400
again the Mexican State, or at least the kind of

999
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:55.440
these subborted like the front lines of the Mexican State

1000
00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:58.360
really just kind of engaging in this squeezing of migrant labor.

1001
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:00.519
And so basically by ninety Cen's two meet, the Mexican

1002
00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:03.400
government decides to pull out of this, like to undo

1003
00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:07.599
this internal program, tells the various farm operators in northern Mexico,

1004
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:09.639
if you figure that on your own right, that basically

1005
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:11.679
the memos they sent amounts to that. They're like, this

1006
00:43:11.719 --> 00:43:13.119
is too much of a headache. We don't want to

1007
00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:16.360
mess with these migrants, like they seem like too basically

1008
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:21.239
like too aware of not their rights, but like the letters,

1009
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:23.920
they're establishing the right to it's not that they have

1010
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:26.199
a right, is that they are establishing for themselves the

1011
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:26.960
right to exit.

1012
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:31.960
Right taken for granted I think nowadays. But you know

1013
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:34.480
that is a right that these migrants had to fight for. Right.

1014
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:36.679
It's only you know, it doesn't become clear until you

1015
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:38.199
look at it from like a Mexican angle, right where

1016
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:40.039
you can see that there was this kind of friction

1017
00:43:40.119 --> 00:43:41.719
for them to be able to leave.

1018
00:43:44.599 --> 00:43:46.760
How did you look start looking into this, Like what

1019
00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:48.599
what's for you to look into this?

1020
00:43:48.599 --> 00:43:50.159
This history?

1021
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:52.119
Uh?

1022
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.920
Yeah, I started looking at his history because I had

1023
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:59.400
questions about my own family and my own past. You know,

1024
00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:01.760
I grew up on the East Coast, and so unlike

1025
00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:03.679
the West Coast, there wasn't in the nineties, at least,

1026
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:06.800
there wasn't much like knowledge about Mexican migration, right. I

1027
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:08.599
think in the West Coast, obviously there's much more like

1028
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:10.840
developed traditions around, like Chicago studies and this sort of thing.

1029
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:12.719
There was none of that stuff in New York, right.

1030
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:14.440
It was all like in so far as that there

1031
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:16.840
was Latino stuff. It was like Puerto Rican studies and

1032
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:19.440
that sort of thing. You can't really transpose that blueprint

1033
00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:21.880
onto the Mexican And so I had a lot of

1034
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:24.519
questions about. I had not a lot of quess I

1035
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:26.679
had one deep question about or not deep, but like

1036
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:30.280
one pressing question to me, uh, which was, you know,

1037
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:31.000
why are we here?

1038
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:33.239
Right? Like I always compared to like white peop because

1039
00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:34.960
white people always have this questions like who am I right?

1040
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:38.440
Like, you know where I always talked for like Mexicans,

1041
00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:41.400
at least again on this side of the country, it

1042
00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:44.440
was always like why why are we here? Like because

1043
00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:48.599
I didn't understand, you know, I think people obviously attribute

1044
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:51.000
quite a bit of like anti immigrant rhetoric to like

1045
00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:53.320
Trump and the Republicans and all that stuff. But even

1046
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:55.599
in the nineties, like it wasn't like oh yeah, oh yeah, yah, yeah,

1047
00:44:55.639 --> 00:44:57.440
it was pretty bad too, right, And I remember as

1048
00:44:57.440 --> 00:44:59.599
a kid growing up, I was like, that has intense

1049
00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:02.360
out here, like you know, these people really don't like Mexican,

1050
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:05.239
especially like you know, young kids are like particularly vicious, right,

1051
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:08.320
like any any likesm they can like perform, they perform

1052
00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:10.440
it to like the nth degree. Right, And so that

1053
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:12.559
that's where where I grew up. That's the context I

1054
00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:14.800
grew up and not understanding why we could be in

1055
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:18.760
the country where we as Mexicans are essentially like denigrated,

1056
00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:21.440
right in my mind, just didn't calculate r it. I

1057
00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:23.719
just carried that question for the longest time, right, like

1058
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:27.079
you know, how do I explain this this process? And

1059
00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:29.320
so one of the subsidiary questions of that is like

1060
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:31.039
did the Mexican government.

1061
00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:32.000
Ever do anything about like.

1062
00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:35.840
It seems like, you know, it would be like not

1063
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:38.559
that I want to be like if if I was

1064
00:45:38.599 --> 00:45:42.239
president of Mexico, right, like I feel like they allow this. Yeah,

1065
00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:44.119
I feel like that would be a top concern. But like, guys,

1066
00:45:44.119 --> 00:45:48.719
we're losing like people, yeah, people are leaving, Like is

1067
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:52.960
it me? And so like, I was like, surely, like

1068
00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:54.960
they must have been thinking about this right now. Obviously

1069
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:56.760
it turns out that you know, they weren't. They were

1070
00:45:56.840 --> 00:45:59.440
thinking about it, not necessarily from those like emotional reasons

1071
00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:03.079
or patriots patriot ism, more to kind of like protect

1072
00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:05.559
themselves against political blowback and that sort of thing. But nonetheless, right,

1073
00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:07.480
the question didn't lead me to that, to scratch that

1074
00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:10.880
particular that that particularly right when I was in grad school,

1075
00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:12.800
there was one newspaper was a newspaper article actually that

1076
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:14.440
did it for me because I was looking into this

1077
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:16.639
incident in nineteen fifty four and they was they were

1078
00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:20.039
talking about a certain court in a state government in

1079
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:24.239
Mexico was talking about making emigration illegal. And so I

1080
00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:27.119
was like, well, that's confusing illegal immigration. I've never heard

1081
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:30.320
of that, and so I was like, wait, somebody maybe

1082
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:34.559
wanted Mexicans to stay. And then I was like, yeah,

1083
00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:37.320
so you keep asking questions, right, like yeah, why and

1084
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:38.440
why nothing happened?

1085
00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:39.800
Right, so it begins to add up into this kind

1086
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:41.320
of whole story, and.

1087
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:44.719
So that that yeah, yeah, basically one thing led to another,

1088
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:47.480
but it was very an organic question. And then like

1089
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:53.000
organic findings that these scraps because with history, all you

1090
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:56.840
get scraps, right, these scraps of like paper, these scraps

1091
00:46:56.880 --> 00:46:59.760
of the newspapers that suggested to me, maybe there's a

1092
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:01.719
way bigger story. And it's probably even bigger story that

1093
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:04.199
I'm even telling, right, because so many things get lost, right,

1094
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:06.719
like you know, the conversations that people have, or like

1095
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:09.000
radio coverage. I didn't really get to tap into a

1096
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:11.239
TV coverage. I didn't really get to tap into it.

1097
00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:14.400
I would be fascinated to see what was happening on

1098
00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:17.480
those channels right about this this moment here, I just

1099
00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:20.000
did the best one of what I had, because obviously

1100
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:21.920
the thing with Academa is very like like you know,

1101
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:24.079
the Mexican government is operating with like a time clock.

1102
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:25.639
Me too, right, Like you know, yeah, I only have

1103
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:27.360
like three years of my program, and then like when

1104
00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:29.000
you're a professor, you have a clock too. It's like

1105
00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:31.039
you can't go down with all the rabbit holes. You

1106
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:33.480
pick the ones you can like organize the most compelling

1107
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:34.079
story around, and.

1108
00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:36.400
That's kind of what you go with. But yeah, maybe

1109
00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:38.559
I didn't get the full story. I'd love to see more.

1110
00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:40.880
You know, people go go into the archives or like

1111
00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:45.400
radio archives, TV archives, oral histories, even right to try

1112
00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:47.679
to figure out this story. I just saw my job

1113
00:47:47.719 --> 00:47:50.360
as kind of going out there and saying, there there

1114
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:52.800
is a story actually here, we're wrong. There's not just

1115
00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:57.480
a story about Mexico willingly bleeding out all this population, right,

1116
00:47:57.519 --> 00:47:59.280
that there's more of this kind of give and take,

1117
00:47:59.320 --> 00:48:02.159
this tension between the US and Mexico that, of course

1118
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:05.320
we've long since forgotten, but it's fundamental to understanding why

1119
00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:08.559
there is, in fact such a large Mexican population here

1120
00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:11.119
in the United States. So, yeah, that was that big

1121
00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:14.199
question I had and the way I approached it, and

1122
00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:16.760
I'm just thankful, you know, it's I don't mean now

1123
00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:20.039
so I can have different questions.

1124
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:24.679
I do want to say it was super interesting to

1125
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:27.000
read the book, especially because our great grandfather was a

1126
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:30.320
bet he was Yeah, so I'm like reading it, I'm like, oh,

1127
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:31.320
I wonder if he was there.

1128
00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:35.079
I don't know what years, Yeah, we don't know what year.

1129
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:37.800
Where should look at look at the pictures and like

1130
00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:38.920
look close she.

1131
00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:40.960
Did, and there was one man that kind of looked

1132
00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:44.679
like him, and Christina, Yeah, it kind of looked like him,

1133
00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:47.119
but I don't know where, like exactly, I know that.

1134
00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:49.679
I don't even know if they were already in Halisco

1135
00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:51.719
at the time. I don't think anyone. I don't think

1136
00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:55.639
there were still yeah, and so yeah, I don't know

1137
00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:56.400
where he went.

1138
00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:58.840
Yeah, we know from that time period, is that he

1139
00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:01.679
when our mom told him him she was leaving and

1140
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:04.079
her plan was to come to the US for a

1141
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:05.039
year and then go back.

1142
00:49:05.079 --> 00:49:05.679
That was her plan.

1143
00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:08.039
And then she stayed like years later, she's still here. Yeah,

1144
00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:10.360
here we are, Yeah, here we are. And then but

1145
00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:12.000
he told her when she said that to him, he

1146
00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:13.280
told her like, why do you want to go there?

1147
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:16.360
It's ugly or something like that, like something like it's

1148
00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:17.800
not pretty there, like it sucks.

1149
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.360
Yeah, I think he said it was ugly. Yeah, so

1150
00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:21.320
knows where he went.

1151
00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:23.480
That's the same that I gain.

1152
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:25.400
I mean, as I got older, the question got like

1153
00:49:26.039 --> 00:49:28.000
got it got only more intense, I would say, because

1154
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:29.360
you know, the more I went to Mexico as like

1155
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:31.400
a kid, I was like, doesn't seem that.

1156
00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:35.039
Bad here, guys, like you know no, right? Yeah, I

1157
00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:44.320
was like.

1158
00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:41.320
You I could have been Mexican.

1159
00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:44.880
Yeah, yeah, I feel like something was robbed for me, right,

1160
00:49:45.800 --> 00:49:47.880
So the question only got deeper, Like the more I

1161
00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:48.239
traveled to.

1162
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:49.440
Mexico and that you get to know it.

1163
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:53.079
I mean, obviously we can't say really you know, yeah,

1164
00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:56.639
our parents and grandparents generation, they had a whole different context,

1165
00:49:56.679 --> 00:49:59.440
right that we lack, and they kind of just make

1166
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:03.559
decisions based on that. But yeah, yeah, definitely, as as

1167
00:50:03.559 --> 00:50:05.400
I got older, and even even the more I go

1168
00:50:05.480 --> 00:50:07.719
back now as an older person with kids, my kids

1169
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:10.039
and stuff like that, I see Mexico with the rosy

1170
00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:14.000
eyes of an immigrant, right. Yeah, how Americans immigants away

1171
00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:15.559
show up to America and they're like, they don't see

1172
00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:17.960
anything back. They're like Trump that that don't matter, right, Like,

1173
00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:20.440
all they see is the opportunity. That's kind of the

1174
00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:23.039
same way I see Mexico a lot of times. And

1175
00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:25.280
so it's why I kind of have this big question

1176
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:27.440
about you know, was there ever a moment in which

1177
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:31.400
it was possible to stay? And again, you know, it

1178
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:33.880
looks like there was a little moment, a little moment

1179
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:37.679
you know, for the reasons the book lays out didn't

1180
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:38.440
quite come to pass.

1181
00:50:39.239 --> 00:50:40.719
But thank you guys for having me here. It was

1182
00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:43.119
great chatting with you guys. Maybe if I ever write

1183
00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:47.199
a second book, I'll come back and you know, yes.

1184
00:50:47.159 --> 00:50:51.320
We would before we go where can people get your buck?

1185
00:50:51.519 --> 00:50:54.159
As well as like follow your work?

1186
00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:58.239
You can follow my work. So my my faculty page

1187
00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:02.440
on n Y you has all like my relevant projects

1188
00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:04.719
and that kind of thing. You can also just type

1189
00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:08.559
my full name ran the bargain dot Com. My phone

1190
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:12.119
name is not, but like my full name, I should

1191
00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:16.320
change my name to that, right, Yeah, yeah, if you

1192
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:20.639
type that out right to find my my my ongoing projects.

1193
00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:23.679
I'm doing one on Guatemala migration, uh to Mexico.

1194
00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:25.639
Okay, we'll have to have you back on for that.

1195
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:30.760
Then that's another topic that fascinates us, yes, right, which

1196
00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:31.840
is you know, neighbors.

1197
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:32.840
With Yeah, okay.

1198
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:36.159
That was called the True North. That was about how

1199
00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:39.360
America in the eighties wasn't the uh and North. There

1200
00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:40.599
wasn't like America, right.

1201
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:41.000
Uh.

1202
00:51:41.079 --> 00:51:44.199
It was actually kind of like very dynamically defined by

1203
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:46.639
these migrants. So they moved from like the Guatemala mountains

1204
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:48.960
to like the jungles of Chapas to like these Ara settlements.

1205
00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:49.679
Right.

1206
00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:53.280
They kept constantly kind of recalibrating their direction, often through

1207
00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:54.079
and within Mexico.

1208
00:51:54.400 --> 00:51:54.559
Uh.

1209
00:51:54.639 --> 00:51:56.480
And so that's why it's called True North, and it's

1210
00:51:56.519 --> 00:51:57.119
kind of it.

1211
00:51:57.199 --> 00:51:59.079
Really it aims to be more like this dynamic history

1212
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:01.760
of how people like look for place and create place

1213
00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:03.800
and that kind of thing, because I mean so many,

1214
00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:06.440
so many immigrations are like they were from there and

1215
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:07.840
then they moved here, and it's kind of like this

1216
00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:09.719
is kind of like very un uni directional thing or

1217
00:52:09.760 --> 00:52:12.519
it's transnational, right, like they come here, but they still

1218
00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:14.599
remain kind of tied back home, and so it loses

1219
00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:17.440
that dynamism that I think we all, like anybody who

1220
00:52:17.480 --> 00:52:19.559
knows any migrant or as part of a microan family

1221
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:21.320
knows that there's just so much dynamisms to it, right,

1222
00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:23.599
even when we come to America, right where like moving

1223
00:52:23.639 --> 00:52:25.719
from one neighborhood to the next and then yeah, you

1224
00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:28.079
know right, that to me is the reality of migration, right,

1225
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:30.679
it's kind of constant mobility or people called micro mobility

1226
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:32.800
or whatever. But that that's kind of what I try

1227
00:52:32.840 --> 00:52:35.239
to show, or I'm trying to show now that i'm writing, you.

1228
00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:37.679
Know, that second project. So yeah, yeah, I'll try to hurry.

1229
00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:42.360
Up, and you know, yeah, thank you for having me, yes,

1230
00:52:42.519 --> 00:52:44.760
thank you, And yeah, we'll put all that information in

1231
00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:45.360
the show notes.

1232
00:52:45.400 --> 00:52:47.920
And also we'll keep an eye out for True North.

1233
00:52:48.119 --> 00:52:49.800
Yeah, I will send you also the email.

1234
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:53.079
It's sweet, perfect, Thank you guys.

1235
00:52:53.480 --> 00:52:59.960
By Star As Known is produced by Carmen and Christine.

1236
00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:03.480
Research by Carmen and Christina, edited by Christina. You can

1237
00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:06.480
find sources for every episode at Estordia Unknown dot com

1238
00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:09.079
and in our show notes. Creating the podcast has a

1239
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:10.360
lot of work, so if you want to help us

1240
00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:13.400
out financially, you can do so by supporting us on

1241
00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:16.599
Patreon at Patreon dot com. Slash Studio as an own

1242
00:53:16.599 --> 00:53:17.039
podcast