July 24, 2025

The Shady History of Nestle in Latin America (and the global south) Part One

The Shady History of Nestle in Latin America (and the global south) Part One
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In the 1970s, the Nestle infant formula controversy came to light. In this episode, Cristina tells Carmen about the infant formula "scandal" (as in babies died), due to shady marketing practices. A lot of these infant deaths happened in Latin America and the rest of the global south. But first, the history of Nestle, starting with Henri Nestle and a bit about the history of formula. Part two will include how these practices have continued in Peru and more.

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Music Credit: Hustlin (Instrumental) by Neffex

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_of_Nestl%C3%A9#Baby_formula_marketing
https://utopia.org/guide/crime-controversy-nestles-5-biggest-scandals-explained
https://voxdev.org/topic/health/deadly-toll-marketing-infant-formula-low-and-middle-income-countries
https://globalcapitalism.history.ox.ac.uk/files/case12-nestlescorporatereputationpdf-1
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/01/nestle-under-fire-for-marketing-claims-on-baby-milk-formulas
https://bhr.stern.nyu.edu/quick-take/why-global-companies-need-to-do-more-than-merely-comply-with-local-law/
http://archive.babymilkaction.org/pdfs/babykiller.pdf
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-05-19-mn-2981-story.html
https://blogs.baruch.cuny.edu/mgt4880nestle/2013/04/20/nestle-the-baby-killer/
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/nestle-baby-milk-scandal-food-industry-standards
https://www.contemporarypediatrics.com/view/concise-history-infant-formula-twists-and-turns-included
https://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/06/magazine/the-controversy-over-infant-formula.html?pagewanted=all
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9#Baby_formula_marketing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Nestl%C3%A9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justus_von_Liebig#Major_works

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WEBVTT

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Hi everyone. This is Carmen and Christina and this is

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Estodias Unknown, a podcast where we talk about Latin American history.

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Sometimes it's normal and deals with tywee topics like criticism, corruption,

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and genocide. But more than that, it's also about resistance,

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power and community. And today today it's all about corruption, corruption, corruption. Yes,

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we're finally doing episodes on Nesli. Wait, you told me

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this and I forgotten it, and I love the gasp.

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I love how you were surprised. I have to say

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before we get into the topic. One of the reasons

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I begged, literally begged Carmen to do Estodia as a

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known with me this podcast is because I wanted it

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to talk about Neslie and what three years later, here

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we are, literally my notes, three years later, here we are,

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Oh wow, Yeah, I wanted to. I wanted to talk

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about their horrible history in the global South, in our

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case focusing on Latin America. Okay, and before I can

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talk about the horrible things Nestli has done, which actually

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we have already talked about it a little bit. But

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it was Coca Cola. But Coca Cola is under Nestli.

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But you talked about Coca Cola murdering all the union

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people and allegedly but allegedly murdering allegedly but yes, Coca

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Cola and its contractors, yeah, allegedly suppressing workers' rights and

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labor union organizing with murder allegedly allegedly, but yes, in Colombia,

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but also got the Mala. But you focus on Columbia,

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so that is still under Nestli, like at the end

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of the day, because that's under Nestlie, right. But yeah,

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before I can talk about that, the that I want

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to talk about, which does include killing babies for slavery,

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modern slavery, child labor, stealing the water things, and then

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the paramilitary groups that were union busting with murder allegedly,

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I want to start the beginning of NESTLEI so we

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can get context, and then I'm going to get into

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the baby killing. This is depressing. Baby's dying because of

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Nestley in the Global South mostly, but also I think

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a lot of people by now have heard about I

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think the formula thing, right, is what you're talking about. Yeah,

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I think that is what a lot of people know about.

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So that's this episode, and I don't think it's going

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to be a very long part one, but I want

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to talk about that in part one, and then in

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part two I'm going to talk about how they didn't

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really stop doing that, oh like like till now messing

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with baby and it's not formula anymore. But you know,

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like the drinks, the powdered drinks like ovaltine. Oh yeah, yeah,

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you know, like where it's like for older kids to

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get nutrients like a supplement. Yeah, like those kinds of

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things now and also formula stuff. That's going to be

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part two, okay, and in Latin America, but like and

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I'll and obviously well we'll get into it. So but

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that's this episode is just like the beginning of Nestli,

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the horrible things they've done with infant formula up to

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where all that people think it ended because it seems like,

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oh we changed, but like really they didn't. But that's

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part too. Does that make sense? Oh wow, yeah, no

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I can't. I'm catching when you're putting down perfect Also,

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I'm sure we'll get into it. But like Nestlie is,

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I mean, we know how evil they are, but there's huge,

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They're huge. Yeah, almost every drink you could think of

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it is under them. Anyway, My point being that's so

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hard to boycott them because of that. Yes, okay, so yes,

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we're starting at the beginning of Nestli because like a

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lot of ideas that became evil mega corporations, it didn't

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out with bad intentions, or it doesn't seem like it

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started with bad intentions, but we know they're evil, evil

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because capitalism inherently makes every corporation evil because if you're

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all about growth, growth, growth, it's going to come at

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the expensive people and the environment. You know. True that.

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So Nestli, the corporations and birth is a result of

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two mergers and then a bunch of mergers, an insane

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amount of acquisitions and mergers that make it the mega conglomerate. Yeah,

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is that a conglomerate, conglomerate whatever it is, what it

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is today? That was a series of an insane amount

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of mergers and acquisitions. But it began with two. But

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before that, it began with Onnried nest Lee And I

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thought it was Henry because it's h E. N R I.

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But it's on Reed. It's a fringe pew. Yeah, And

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at least for this series, I'm only focusing on this

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because again it's an initial of like two companies and

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then like these like American Brothers. It's too much. I

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don't give a fuck, but basically two companies. So I'm sorry,

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I just don't like it's so boring to me, and

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reading about all these mergers are like, fuck this not

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writing any of this down anyway, Yeah, yeah, who cares

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about that? So the two companies became the Anglo Swiss

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Condensed Milk Company. One of these was Andri Neslie's Company,

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and then the other we WI. And then the other

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one was the Page Brothers Company. And that's the school

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of a name, their fucking name. And this is the

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original two mergers. But we're just focusing on Anri. So

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Henri was born Heinrich Nesli on August tenth, eighteen eighteen,

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in Frankfurt, Germany. A Leo, yes, a Leo and a

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Swiss German. Oh was with Naven French? Oh no? Why

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did I get French from my bad? No Swiss? I

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got it because of the name Henri. Actually yeah. And

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then I said we sounds friendly. We yeah, and then

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we just kept going yeah Swiss German, my bad, no,

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well scratch everything, we just like Brench and yeah, Frankfurt Germany.

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He was the eleventh of fourteen children. God damn, well

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that's what it was like. Yeah, yeah, that birth control. Yeah,

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the dark times if you will. Yes. His parents were

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Johann Ulrik Mattias Nestli and Anna Maria Karina Achaman. When

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his father passed away, Heinrich inherited the family business. And

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this business was in glazing. He was a glazier. And

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this is a trades person whose job is to cut

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and stall unremoved glass. Oh god, okay, well why was

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that thing like a glazed donut? I honestly because we're

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kind of we we like we like the donuts, you know,

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stupid like donuts. All right, So I'm no same. This

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business had been in the family for five generations goddamn

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before was given to Heinrich. Five generalarys. Wow. Yeah, okay,

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but I guess, like a typical Disney plot, he didn't

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want to do the family business. Wow. So he didn't

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do it. And before he turned twenty in eighteen thirty four,

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he completed a four year apprenticeship under a pharmacist. I

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don't know why, though, I mean, there's fourteen other kids,

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so one of them could do one of them can

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inherit and keep that family business going because yeah, and

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for some reason that has been lost to history. In

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between eighteen thirty four and eighteen forty he moved to Switzerland.

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Here he was able to fully use his training, and

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he was authorized to perform chemical experiments, write out prescriptions,

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and sell medicines. And it was in this era of

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his life that he changed his name from Heinrich to

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Henri to better fit with the Swiss. I guess Heinrich

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was too German. I mean, as soon as you said Heinrich,

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I'm like, wait, is he German? Yeah? I mean yeah.

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And Henri nest Lee was always chasing the bag, trying

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to find a new thing to make money. He buy

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into the region's production of wrap seeds. I don't know

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that's how you say. That's not like seeds that were

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made into oils. Basically, oh, okay, a production of nut oils,

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rum and absinthe like liquor, okay, absinthe. Yeah. He then

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began to manufacture and sell carbonated mineral water and lemonade.

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At some point he left mineral water production and then

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in eighteen fifty seven began to work on gas lighting

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and fertilizers. Like this man has done it at all, Yes,

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and again chasing that bag. What was going to make

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him the most money it fuels? I don't know. Or

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maybe he just had new interests. I don't know he

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had ADHD. I know, ron maybe he had ADHD, and

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it's not exactly known why or when he began to

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work on infant formula. That's what he did. It seems

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that maybe he was hearing about the ongoing intro mortality

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rates because him and his wife were childless. Oh and

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they I don't think they wanted children honestly, Okay, child

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free Queen's oh my god, that's the word I was

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looking for. Child free, I said, childless and that sounds

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more depressing than child free. Well for some people, they

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use childless. Okay, okay, but we don't know. We don't know. Yeah,

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we don't know. But he started working on this, and

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so maybe he thought an alternative to breast milk could

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make him some serious money or save some serious amount

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of lives. I don't know which one. Wow, I wish

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I knew why not both? I want to know his

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intentions right, well, where they start out? Evil or not? Right?

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Because we don't know. There were different rumors on his

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reasons for getting into this venture. Some say he washed

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his neighbors struggle to feed her daughter and that was

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his inspo, or that he just saw the world around

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him that infants were dying. Well, you know what, it's true. Yeah,

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back then there was no other option. It was either

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you could you breastfeed, or the baby didn't eat and

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the baby died. And not everyone can breastfeed, So exactly

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why so many can? Well, besides the lack of breast control, Yeah,

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it was people or babies didn't live past well as

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if like five years. A lot of the time there

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was like a high mortality rate for five and under. Yeah,

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so who knows what his intentions were, But in all seriousness,

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this was, like we were saying, a time of high

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infantmortality mortality. Breastfeeding during this time was the ideal way

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to feed babies because it was the only option, especially

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for the poor. Because the rich they could choose to

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hire wet nurses h and then of course in the

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US force enslaved women to be wet nurses. However, we're

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talking about Henri and Europe, so in this case, it

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was hiring wet nurses and there was even a whole

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regulated program in Europe for wet nursing. Really wow. Yeah,

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And like in this program, a brunette women were preferred

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to were the preferred women for to hire as a

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wet nurse. Why over blondes or redheads, because they thought

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that the milk of a brunette's woman was more nutritious

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and balanced. Why though, I don't know, okay, brunettes, yeah, okay,

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well when for us? Finally, although I time, I would

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rather kill myself than be a wed. I mean doesn't

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sound like fun. No, it sounds miserable. I mean some

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people like it. It was miserable, little fucking but like

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with their own kids, right yeah, yeah yeah. And so

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the women in the wet nurse programs were chosen with

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the utmost care because this was one of the most

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important jobs. Okay, slain. They all lived in one building

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together until their services were needed. M that's weird. Yeah,

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that's a little weird. And nurses had to go through

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routine health examinations and they were prohibited from nursing more

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than one baby at a time. And with all these regulations,

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there was not enough wet nurses for the need. I'm sure. Yeah,

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And there was a clear, clear need for an alternative,

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and so infants were starting to be I will add

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here though I didn't write this on my notes, but

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like during this time in Europe, it was like growing

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less and less popular for rich people that could hire

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wet nurses to do it just because they could. And

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obviously it's a woman's choice, but now it's like this

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thing where like well like a societal thing, not even

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like a like a personal choice. It was like a

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societal pressure to not wed nurse, which then made the

206
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demand more and there still wasn't enough wet nurses. Like

207
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maybe if they had I don't know, regulated a little

208
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bit more and been like only if you absolutely need it,

209
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But that's not what happened. That's such a it's a

210
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tricky thing to say, though I will add on top

211
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of that, I don't know, such a what like a

212
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tricky trick I was gonna say. It reminds me of

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what people say about sergacy now, because you know, you

214
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have like rich people and celebrities that use services because

215
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they don't want to quote ruin their bodies or put

216
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their bodies through pregnancy, which obviously is a uh an experience.

217
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If you will, Yeah, a physical experience if you will.

218
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But there's also some people who can't carry pregnancies, and

219
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so they opt for sergacy because it's one of their

220
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only options. And then it's yeah, it's like a it's

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a whole ethical question, like because is it something you

222
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should pay for because it's inherently exploitative. I don't know,

223
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I don't know. Yeah, pretty much the same argument for

224
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a witnessing, like I see it very interesting, interesting to

225
00:13:56.840 --> 00:13:59.600
say the least, which I will say the least, let

226
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me come. So, yeah, there was a need for something else,

227
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something different, and so infants were starting to be dry nursed,

228
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which is they were fed cow's milk or goat milk

229
00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:15.360
like animal milk, and these babies clearly struggled more than

230
00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:17.200
breast of the babies because it's just like it's not

231
00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:20.840
made for people, especially people that's small, that can't process

232
00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.039
certain things. Also, arguably some of us were never meant

233
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to drink milk. Yeah, doctors and scientists noticed that infants

234
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.360
who were given this unaltered animal milk or in other words,

235
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raw milk. Yes, in other words, so babies that had

236
00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:43.639
this unaltered or another words, fro raw milk had a

237
00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:46.759
high mortality rate and were more likely more likely to

238
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suffer from indigestion and dehydration. And scientists had been working

239
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.639
for a while to find a solution, and unread nest

240
00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:58.080
Lee wasn't the first to try. Before him German scientists

241
00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:01.519
Johann Frontz Simon or Simon, that has to be Simon,

242
00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:09.639
Simon s Seaway Simon. He published the first chemical analysis

243
00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.559
of human and cow's milk, which served as the basis

244
00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.120
for formula. And this was in the eighteen thirties. And

245
00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:18.720
why did I not write down the exact year. I

246
00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:21.480
remember typing it. I don't know what happened anyway, I

247
00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:23.519
didn't write it down, but it was in the eighteen thirties,

248
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and so yeah, this was like a comparison of what

249
00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:30.240
the breakdown of the differences of human and cow milk.

250
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And so they found that cow milk had a higher

251
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protein content and a lower carbohydrate content than human milk.

252
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And so the new recommendation was to add water, sugar,

253
00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:44.240
and cream to cow milk to make it more digestible

254
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for babies. And that's what they were doing. This was

255
00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:51.200
like the first version of formula. Interesting, so by eighteen

256
00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:57.799
sixty German chemists Justice von Liebig libig Li big Li Big,

257
00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:03.440
I don't know, developed the commercial formula and he Justice

258
00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:06.720
just he was inspired to work on this when he

259
00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:10.960
saw his favorite daughter, because yes he has favorites. Okay, ye,

260
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:14.000
at least he's admitting it, he is. He saw her

261
00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:19.519
struggle to feed her baby ah, and so he claimed

262
00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:23.080
that his granddaughter thrived on this new solution that he made.

263
00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:26.759
And this was a powdered formula made from wheat flour,

264
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:31.879
cow's milk, multi flour, and potassium chloride. And this one

265
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.039
was meant to be added to heated cow's milk. But

266
00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:38.480
when a skeptical French doctor tried to replicate this formula

267
00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:40.679
to see if it really was the best alternative to

268
00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:44.440
breast milk when you can't breastfeed, he found that infants

269
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were dying. He stopped the experiments because they were dying.

270
00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:51.399
Every c there was like five infant deaths. Oh no,

271
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:54.799
two were twins. So his granddaughter just got lucky. Then,

272
00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:57.240
I think so, I think so. And you know that's

273
00:16:57.240 --> 00:16:59.679
the tricky thing. I guess, like you had to like,

274
00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:01.360
this had to be made. I mean, how do you

275
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test this out? You know, exactly, and like this episode,

276
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I don't want it to be taken as like, oh,

277
00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.079
breastfeeding is the best, because no fed is best and

278
00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.640
formula does really save one like if a woman can't

279
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:21.079
or like mentally but for different reasons specifically mentally can't breastfeed. Yes,

280
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.160
this is like the babies have to eat something like,

281
00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:27.119
there's no denying that. And obviously things have to happen

282
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.319
in order for these things to have been made. But

283
00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:32.759
then once they were made and once it was known,

284
00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:38.039
like certain things were known, then like was there a

285
00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:39.920
need to for this to be pushed so aggressively in

286
00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:43.000
certain markets where maybe I wasn't the safest. That's the

287
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:46.039
purpose of this, not trying to like be like, oh

288
00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:52.240
breast is best because no. Yeah. So, scientists kept working

289
00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:55.160
on making formulas better, and this is where where Anria

290
00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:59.039
Nestley comes back into the picture for us. Using already

291
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:01.680
existing work in this area, he created a new formula.

292
00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.400
This formula was made with malt cow's milk, sugar, and

293
00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:09.359
wheat flour. He also removed the acid and starch from

294
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:13.000
the flour because these were difficult for babies to digest,

295
00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:18.400
and Nestle's new version was more accessible than Justice von

296
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.319
Liebigg's because it didn't need cow milk. They didn't need

297
00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.000
to have cow and heat up the cow milk. This

298
00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:29.319
just needed diluted water that needed to be boiled before

299
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:37.920
feeding babies. So yeah, more accessible, so soon freeing Lucktee

300
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:40.799
and Rey Nestle that's the name of them. The first

301
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:44.680
name Henry Nesley's Milk Flour, which said not the first

302
00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.519
name was Kinder Milk or children Flour, and then it

303
00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.319
became Onri Nestley's Milk Flour, which I guess sounds better

304
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.920
than children flour, children's flour maybe children flour. Yeah, anyway,

305
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.279
it was being sold all over Europe and then in

306
00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:03.039
the eighteen seventies all over the US for fifty cents

307
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:08.799
a bottle. And in eighteen seventy five Andri NESTLEI retired,

308
00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:13.279
but the Anglo Swiss Nestle In Corporation of course continued

309
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.319
and they continued and continued to grow. They added milk

310
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:20.519
based baby foods in eighteen seventy seven. Then in eighteen

311
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:24.400
seventy nine NESTLEI merged with Milk chocolate inventor Daniel Peter,

312
00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:29.880
and so they're adding more products all the while their

313
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:35.960
formula market grew and grew, and at first Nestley, under

314
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:40.160
the wishes of Henri stated like in their official like

315
00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:43.599
marketing like they stated formula should only be used when

316
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:47.319
absolutely necessary, and that breast milk was still best for

317
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:51.200
babies and so like it shouldn't be used just because

318
00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:54.680
like for convenience. It should be an emergency or like

319
00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:57.160
no other option type of thing. Yes, and that's what

320
00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:00.359
they would say at first. Eventually, though, this line of

321
00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:04.799
thinking and marketing would change for the worst, especially after

322
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:10.119
Henri Nestlei died because this was the messaging that he wanted. Yeah,

323
00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.480
that's what he wanted. And so again I'm skipping about

324
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:17.119
Nestli the corporation growing. But nineteen oh one to nineteen

325
00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:21.400
eighty nine, there's a series of insane mergers. Damn. During

326
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:25.200
World War Two, they get super super super rich. Nestle's

327
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:31.640
nest Cafe, which we all know was super successful. Again,

328
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:34.680
the coffee is just more accessible. You can like drink

329
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.759
it anywhere, and so it became it became the stable

330
00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:39.799
drink for the US military. But it's also like the

331
00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:44.440
staple coffee in Latin America, instant coffee and coffee. Yeah,

332
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.319
and also like it was the stable drink for the

333
00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.400
US military. But Neslie was supplying both sides of the war,

334
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:56.559
because why not both sides? Yeah, both sides. And then

335
00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:59.799
they acquired they acquired more brands in the nineteen eighties,

336
00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:03.559
more acquisitions nineteen ninety to twenty eleven, which includes like

337
00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:06.960
an insane amount of products that can't be stressed enough.

338
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.920
Santa Pelagreena, Hot Pockets, oval Teine, Gerber, Coca Cola. They're

339
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:16.559
like in almost everything. Yeah, it's scary, it should be illegal. Yeah,

340
00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:27.599
I agree. But back to Nestley and infant formula. Andrie

341
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.720
Nestley died in eighteen ninety and within ten years of

342
00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:34.759
his death, Nestlei the corporation began to notice that people

343
00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:38.759
were preferring formula over breast milk, and they realized that

344
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:43.240
marketing formula as better than breast milk was the move

345
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.119
to make. This is how they were going to make

346
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:50.599
the most money, and so they were starting to say

347
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:54.119
instead that this was something that you should use because

348
00:21:54.119 --> 00:21:58.079
it's better. So then Nestlei started to donate formula to

349
00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:03.440
hospitals because there's always been situations in which infants cannot

350
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:09.039
be breastfed, like various reasons. Their parents that breastfeeds died

351
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.400
and now they don't have anyone to suckle like, they

352
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:16.200
don't have anyone to breast off of. Right, Maternal mortality

353
00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:19.480
was even higher back then, right, yes, it was. These

354
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:22.000
doctors were not out here washing their hands and then

355
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:25.519
you know, yeah, sticking their hands everywhere, you know, Yeah,

356
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:34.160
so you know, the mamas they were dying for no,

357
00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:37.559
but like, no, it was bad. That worst use of mamas,

358
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:42.720
the most cursed use of mama's. Yeah, you win, you

359
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:47.079
be every time I ever said mama, Okay, mama, mama,

360
00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:52.400
let's live, mama, let's research. No, but like they were dying.

361
00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:55.559
It was badly Yeah, it's really bad. So yeah, hospitals

362
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:58.400
needed formula for certain babies. But there was a catch.

363
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:02.680
The requirement by Nestle, and there was other manufacturers, but

364
00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:06.119
I'm focusing on Neslie, but like Abbey was another one,

365
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.000
and like you know a few others, but Neslie was

366
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:11.799
the biggest one. The catch was that in order for

367
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.160
these hospitals in order to get the free formula, hospitals

368
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:18.079
needed to give free samples to all new mothers, not

369
00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:20.920
just for the babies that needed it. And so during

370
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:25.480
this time, all yeah, all mothers, all people who just

371
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:28.599
gave birth were receiving formula. And during this time, the

372
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:32.519
doctor patient like trust a scale was way higher. So

373
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:34.920
if a doctor was handing out something, it was like

374
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:38.039
a medical endorsement, like, Yo, this must be good for

375
00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.559
me if the doctor has given me this. And so

376
00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.519
that's just one shady marketing practice. And this was like

377
00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:48.119
it was done everywhere, including the US, but it was

378
00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:52.400
bigger in the global South. Another super shady marketing practice

379
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:55.240
that they employed was the use of milkmaids. Do you

380
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:59.039
know what milkmaids were? No, Okay, they had other names.

381
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:02.480
That was just one of them. But these were saleswomen

382
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.400
who were dressed as nurses who would visit parents of

383
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:10.680
newborns in the hospital and then tell them this is

384
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:14.279
the best thing for your baby and give them formula. Wow,

385
00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:22.160
it's like when you're crossing into false claims to sell more.

386
00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:28.759
Obviously that's not right. Yeah, And then the dressing as

387
00:24:28.759 --> 00:24:31.640
a nurse was intentional because this conveys like it it

388
00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:37.359
lends credibility. Yes, yes, it's just like whenever pharmaceutical companies

389
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:39.960
would put it on a lab coat and yeah, but

390
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:43.079
they're not doctors and they didn't disclothes that they weren't

391
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:47.119
and so they were telling new mothers this and why

392
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:50.680
would people not believe this? For nurse right? Yeah. Yeah.

393
00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:54.519
Another thing that was commonly done was for formula companies

394
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:58.079
to pay hospitals to design or upgrade buildings, and then

395
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:00.680
these buildings were made in a specific way where the

396
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.319
rooms where people where people were giving birth were further

397
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:06.599
away from where the babies were kept, thus encouraging formula

398
00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:11.440
feeding because walking hungry, crying babies further away it was

399
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:13.920
not ideal and so they were that fucked up. Yeah,

400
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:16.799
the fuck it was. This was like super intentional. Wow.

401
00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:21.359
And they also encouraged practices like separating babies from their

402
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:25.079
mothers right away and then giving them the baby a

403
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:29.519
bottle right away, and so then these babies were used

404
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:33.200
to a bottle and then they actually nursing and latching

405
00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:36.559
onto a real nipple was confusing for them and they

406
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:39.640
couldn't do it and that she is stressful. So that

407
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:41.720
was another practice that was very common. That is such

408
00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:45.279
growth behavior to be doing the yes, especially in the

409
00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:50.039
Global South or Latin America like they like and Latin America,

410
00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:54.640
I should say, like both. And so then you know,

411
00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:57.680
the combination of handing out these free samples encouraged them

412
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:01.400
to be used. By the time this free sample was gone,

413
00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:04.400
the baby was not used to latching and the formula,

414
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:07.279
more formula had to be bought. And then on top

415
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:10.160
of that, sometimes they would also hand out free vouchers

416
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.640
for them to trade for more formula. And when the

417
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:15.200
fat vouchers were gone, the babies they had no choice

418
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:19.000
but to continue feeding babies. But formula is expensive, it's

419
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:22.559
a expensive as fuck, and so then having to go

420
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:26.240
and buy that and then it runs out so fast. Yeah,

421
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:29.160
and so a lot of times in order to save money.

422
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.119
And not even this wasn't just the global South anymore.

423
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:36.160
This is also low income areas in the US. And uh,

424
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:39.599
what timeframe are we talking about here here? Now we're

425
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:42.599
in like this was this practice began like in the

426
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:46.279
nineteen nineteen thirties, and then we're up to like the

427
00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:49.079
nineteen seventies. Now, wow, So it went on for a

428
00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:52.000
long time, a long long time. And also like by

429
00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:57.839
the time that the they needed a formula again, like

430
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:01.440
most of the time, the breast milk like dried out

431
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:05.200
by then, right, Yeah, it weren't. It's not like nowadays

432
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:10.039
where you have the technology and the little what are

433
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:13.200
those called, the little machines, oh to pump, Yeah, the

434
00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:16.680
pumping things. Yeah, Like they weren't as common back then,

435
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:20.759
and even if they were, they weren't accessible to low income,

436
00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:26.359
impoverished people. Yeah. And the thing is breastfeeding and breast

437
00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:28.200
milk is that like you have to do it right

438
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:31.240
away and keep doing it, and that's how you get

439
00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:34.240
your milk to come in, right and whenever this practice

440
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:37.519
of like taking babies away, you're never going to get

441
00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:40.160
your breast milks to come in that way, Like it's impossible.

442
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.240
And these were mostly used in the Global South, like

443
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:49.640
you know, the Philippines, Latin America, Africa, Southeast Asia, all

444
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:55.240
these places, and low income communities in the US. And

445
00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:00.839
that's just that's so insidious, it truly. Isley also gave

446
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:05.000
free samples to doctors, individual doctors, and then paid these

447
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:08.200
doctors to tell patients this was the safest thing to use.

448
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:13.839
And in all of these places, the Global South, Louncan communities.

449
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:17.279
In the US, doctors began to notice that infants who

450
00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:20.480
were formula fed were far more sickly than other babies.

451
00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:22.799
And that's not because one is better than the other,

452
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:25.519
but it's because of the way it was being used.

453
00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:28.759
It wasn't the right way. Like these places had no

454
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:32.240
access to clean water or they had to stretch out

455
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:35.359
the use of formula, and so babies weren't getting enough

456
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:38.119
because they couldn't afford to keep buying it at the

457
00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:41.680
normal pace you're supposed to keep feeding babies. Because they

458
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:43.839
would give free vouchers for a little bit, but they

459
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.160
didn't continue to give them. And that's why things like

460
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:52.160
not benefits and wick and food stamps are so vital

461
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:56.359
in the US and obviously everywhere, but like, these things

462
00:28:56.440 --> 00:29:00.640
were just cut in the US. But that's what made

463
00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:03.799
it worse in these areas. It's not that breast milk

464
00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:06.880
is better, it's that it wasn't being used correctly, and

465
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:11.000
so infants were more sick. So yeah, these babies were

466
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:15.759
just more sick, severely underweight, or dying in bigger numbers.

467
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:19.920
And every source I read stated that millions of babies

468
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:24.039
have died these due to these aggressive marketing practices. One

469
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:27.359
source said that in nineteen eighty one of that year alone,

470
00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:30.640
two hundred and twelve thousand infants died due to nesty

471
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:35.960
formula like misuse. Damn. A nineteen ninety one UNICEF reports

472
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.839
stated that one point five million babies in quote their

473
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:42.519
war countries end quote were dyed due to incorrect use

474
00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:45.920
of nesting formula. So yeah, this is a yearly number

475
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:51.319
like that that shled adds up. Yeah. One nurse in

476
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:55.039
Peru stated that formula made its way to indigenous tribes

477
00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:58.519
in Peru, but they lacked access to clean water and

478
00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:02.559
infants were dying due to preparing formula with contaminated water.

479
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:07.680
And in Peru, Mexico, Chile, and again all over the

480
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:12.039
global South, this was a very common occurrence. Not only this,

481
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.200
but oftentimes when a baby didn't finish the bottle, it

482
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:18.000
would just be safe for later, usually at room temperature,

483
00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:20.920
which we are not supposed to do, right, because then

484
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:24.680
bad bacteria grows and then babies get sick from this

485
00:30:24.759 --> 00:30:28.720
and die. And this isn't the parents fall like at

486
00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:33.640
all in these especially in these places because oftentimes instructions

487
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:39.240
on in formula bottles or for formula cans or in English, right,

488
00:30:39.559 --> 00:30:43.920
and they were not translated to all these different languages ever,

489
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:47.279
and during this time period. And then on top of that,

490
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:51.640
a lot of these places, literacy rates were not that high, right,

491
00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:53.640
so they're just handing out the sting and then not

492
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:55.440
telling people how to use it, and then it's being

493
00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:58.519
used incorrectly. And then even if they did tell them

494
00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:01.319
how to use it, like we were giving someone instructions

495
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:04.680
right after giving birth, like come on, right, like I'm

496
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:08.279
sorry about my brain, it did not work like right, yeah,

497
00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:13.119
which most people would say the same, I imagine. Yeah,

498
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:17.559
And it's not inherent like knowledge for someone to know

499
00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:19.640
how to use these things that they've never used before.

500
00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:22.519
Even here, like how many times do you have the

501
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:26.720
people have to reread like you know, instructions, yeah, you know. Yeah.

502
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:30.519
So like take Chile for example, in Chile, by the

503
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.920
time these practices were in full use, like the nineteen seventies,

504
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:36.240
that's also there was a dictatorship going on in Chilet

505
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:39.960
at the time, right aside from that, but breastfeeding dropped

506
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:45.960
by eighty percent. That's didn't saying them out damn, Like

507
00:31:46.279 --> 00:31:49.680
only twenty percent of babies were breastfit at two months

508
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:52.119
old in the nineteen seventies, Like I think this was

509
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:54.839
from nineteen seventy seven or so, and but you had

510
00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:57.640
that all the money problems that were going on in

511
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:00.799
Chile during this time period, and then of course formula

512
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:06.279
couldn't be purchased like like we said, milk alone was

513
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:09.319
seventy percent of a family's income in Chile. Like hm,

514
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:12.839
we said that last episode, was it? Yes, yes, and

515
00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:16.359
so add in this insidious practice of nesli, like of

516
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:21.759
course babies were gonna die, like yeah, and again we

517
00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:24.279
already said it, but I put it in my notes here,

518
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:26.400
so I'll just say it again. This isn't to say

519
00:32:26.440 --> 00:32:29.599
breast milk is better than formula. It is true that

520
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:33.759
in certain places formula is more risky, like in all

521
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:36.640
the places where the lack of clean water right Like

522
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:41.119
in all these places, formula is far more risky, especially

523
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:43.680
because it would have been far more cheaper to invest

524
00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:47.359
in these countries and give mothers more food. If the

525
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:52.000
mothers had more food, then they would be they would

526
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:55.720
have enough nutrients themselves to produce their own properly breastfeed

527
00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:59.160
if that had been if that had been invested in,

528
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:01.680
that would have been better. But that's not where the

529
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:04.079
money is for these corporations. They don't give a frink, right,

530
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:07.440
So no, that's not what happened. And all of these

531
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:10.720
shady ass practices were brought to light by this organization

532
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:15.000
who published the pamphlet titled Nestley Kills babies in some

533
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:20.480
places that's when they titled it, or did baby killer NESLEI, Wow, honestly,

534
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:23.519
either one is a good name. It grabs your attention.

535
00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:30.599
It's honest. Yeah, it's factual, it's not slander. No, yeah,

536
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:33.400
I couldn't think of that word. I was gonna say thefamatory,

537
00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:36.640
which could have been the same thing. Yeah. And this

538
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:39.279
came out in nineteen seventy four. It was the organization

539
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:42.240
in England who published it, but they translated it to

540
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:47.759
almost every single country like wow. And so then a

541
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:51.680
study by the Food and Agricultural Organization and WHO the

542
00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:55.359
World Health Organization found that in global South countries where

543
00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:58.759
the biggest sudden drop from breast milk to formula occurred,

544
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.920
the number of malnourished infants also grew. Like they saw

545
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:04.759
this study, then they went and were like, well, let's

546
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:07.200
check these claims out and yeah, like let's look into

547
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:10.519
this and it checks out. Wow, look at these numbers.

548
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:14.920
Oh no. And so this led to a pretty big

549
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:18.000
boycott of Nestli, which might have been easier than nineteen

550
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.000
eighties because they they had their hands in less things. Yeah.

551
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:24.519
This boycott, though that was called for in this time period,

552
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:28.039
is still being called for today. But now today you

553
00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:31.199
can add way more shit than just the infant formula,

554
00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:34.880
which we'll get into a part two. Yeah. And so

555
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:38.920
as a result of these boycotts and like some places

556
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:43.119
changing like laws, Nesli did change some practices. They no

557
00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:46.360
longer used milkmaid, They had to like announce who these

558
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:50.800
salespeople were. Some hospitals didn't allow them in anymore at all.

559
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:53.679
But Nestlie then changed what they were like outside of

560
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:56.360
the hospital, waiting for mothers with babies and arms to

561
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:01.000
like go harass them about giving them like samples. Wow,

562
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:03.239
so they were doing that instead, but it was already

563
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:06.360
an improvement from having them dressed as nurses. I mean,

564
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:12.159
yeah who. The World Health Organization also began to give

565
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:15.639
new guidelines, especially in the Global South, where they said

566
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:19.519
mothers should avoid formula and exclusively breastfeed in the first

567
00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:21.880
six months of life. But again, this is such a

568
00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:23.599
hard thing to do in a place where you have

569
00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:28.280
to work, right, or were you not getting enough nutrients, yes,

570
00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:31.239
but for yourself, yeah, which in a lot of cases

571
00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:36.800
is the global selth. Yeah, and so a lot of places.

572
00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:39.599
Once all of this was brought to light, they quickly

573
00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:42.719
changed what they were doing. Costa Rica and the Philippines

574
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:46.159
both changed hospital practices where babies were no longer separated

575
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:51.119
from mothers right away, and infant mortality dropped dramatically once

576
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:53.679
they started doing this. I just can't believe they allowed

577
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:57.639
a fucking corporation to tell them, yeah, or encourage them

578
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:00.960
for their hospital policies like that. It's crazy. You should

579
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:04.079
never have been allowed in the first place, right, Yeah,

580
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:08.119
but I guess when they're funding these builds and not built,

581
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:10.719
that's true, their buildings and yeahs and whatever else and

582
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:14.920
upgrades that they desperately need. That is so it's capitalism,

583
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:19.239
man like, Yeah, capitalism all along. Seriously, that's why we

584
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:21.679
were going to name that podcast this in the first place. Yeah,

585
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:26.880
that's what inspired it. Yes, truly, like diarrhea diseases dropped

586
00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:33.679
by ninety one percent within four years of changing these practices. Wow. Wow.

587
00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:38.519
But contrary to what many believe, they said they changed

588
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:41.920
these shady practices and on paper everything looked better, But

589
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:47.519
these practices in Latin America continue today, and that's going

590
00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:56.519
to be impart two. Oh my god, Yes that I

591
00:36:56.599 --> 00:36:58.159
didn't know about that. This is going to be a

592
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:01.519
new information for you because I thought this was all past. No, no,

593
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:06.320
they are still doing it almost this exact thing is

594
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:11.480
still happening as far like twenty sixteen. Oh wow, in

595
00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:14.039
Latin America. And so yeah, that's gonna be part two,

596
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:16.599
along with other things, like I was talking about the

597
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:21.360
ovaltine and Needle is the other one. But also not

598
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:24.840
only that, like Carmen already did the Coca Cola episode

599
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:29.280
where they were working with paramilitary groups, right right, so

600
00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:31.920
you know that was another thing, but also like Flint

601
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:34.920
and the water crisis in Flint is tied to Nesley.

602
00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:37.199
And I'm not going to get too into that because

603
00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:39.119
that's not Latin America, but I will mention it. I

604
00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:41.400
am talk a little bit about it. I was gonna say,

605
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:47.800
we also talked about Coca Cola, who is apparently undoering Nesli, Yes,

606
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:50.320
and stealing water in Mexico. Yes, that's what I was

607
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:54.039
gonna say, but not just Mexico, California and Oregon. Uh.

608
00:37:56.760 --> 00:38:01.199
I didn't know about that either, yes, it's it's a

609
00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:04.199
lot like when you look at everything and you're like,

610
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:06.800
when does it stop? Like I don't fucking know, I

611
00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:11.000
don't know, damn, damn, damn. And what was the other

612
00:38:11.480 --> 00:38:16.079
thing working with? Oh, modern slavery and child labor, that's

613
00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:18.760
the other one. Okay, I knew about that, yeah as well. Well,

614
00:38:18.760 --> 00:38:23.199
all he's service level. Yeah then all of that. Yeah,

615
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:27.079
it's going to be a part two. So yeah, all right,

616
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:31.159
So I guess this wraps up today's episode, right, Yes,

617
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:33.960
it does. There's something you want to add, well, I

618
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:36.960
will add like, I know this wasn't super Latin America focused,

619
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:38.960
but I wanted like a general overview. I guess it

620
00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:41.039
was a little bit because no, I think it makes

621
00:38:41.079 --> 00:38:43.559
sense and usually will do that whenever we have like

622
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:47.079
a series. Yeah, but yeah, and yeah, I wanted like

623
00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:50.000
a bigger like where did the start? Yeah, and how

624
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:53.599
far it has swayed, like not swayed straight straight? Yeah

625
00:38:53.719 --> 00:38:59.039
from nrinas Lee and his original intentions. Honestly, just the

626
00:38:59.079 --> 00:39:03.039
fact that these this has started and grew ten years

627
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:06.880
after he passed for me, that tells me that that's

628
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:09.039
not what his intentions were at all. You know what

629
00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:12.920
I mean so right, yeah, because it seemed like they

630
00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:17.039
were waiting for that bitch to die. Yeah, like, bitch go,

631
00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:20.480
we have money to do here, old man, like, yeah,

632
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:23.719
we have money to make and and yeah, that shit

633
00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:29.480
is insidious and it's scary, it's horrible, and so yeah,

634
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:31.960
I don't think there's anything else to add other than

635
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:36.639
that if you want to keep up on like current

636
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:43.280
you know, events like immigration things, executive orders, but us

637
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:45.920
complaining about about them like that, Like that's how you're

638
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:49.440
getting this news that were like yelling and streaming and

639
00:39:49.719 --> 00:39:52.920
kind of God, no it's not your first source and yeah,

640
00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:57.159
hopefully not, but you know what it can be anyway.

641
00:39:57.239 --> 00:39:59.519
Point us. We do all that over on Patreon. Also

642
00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:02.440
once in a while we talk about like TikTok drama

643
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:07.800
and internet drama, but lately it's really been heavy, right,

644
00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:11.880
And part of the proceeds from Patreon do go to

645
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:18.599
helping usually immigrant kind of organizations, like we did lately.

646
00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:21.679
We did the car Washers. It's in a show notes

647
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:23.480
the exact name of it, but it's a group that

648
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:26.679
has been donating groceries to car washers because they have

649
00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:30.559
in the most targeted groups for deportations in La County

650
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:34.320
and so that's what we did last time, and I've

651
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.000
been doing it for Spooky Tales. But if you send

652
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:38.360
us a screenshot of your donation, I will send you.

653
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:41.159
We have two stickers. One that just says historian has

654
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:43.159
a known and then and it's not like logo, and

655
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:45.719
the other one is from our Monzanto series. It says

656
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:48.840
all the homies hate Monzanto. We're gonna do Anslie sticker

657
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:51.320
as well. Yeah, all the homies hate Neslie and we

658
00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:54.079
also should also add all the homies hate La Migra

659
00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:58.440
to that, so we'll send those. I still have to

660
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.679
make the mega ones, but yeah, well we'll on those.

661
00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:04.079
Just names Screenshaw, you donated that influenced all in the

662
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:09.320
show notes, and I think that's it. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

663
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:12.360
Other than that, I hope that this was one half

664
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:16.280
of a lessnown that it makes that doesn't make sense.

665
00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:18.400
It's part what this was one lesson say, I know

666
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:26.039
for you? Yes, all right, bye bye. Estoria's ANNWN is

667
00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:29.320
produced by Carmen and Christina, researched by Carmen and Christina,

668
00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:32.519
edited by Christina. You can find sources for every episode

669
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:36.079
at unknown dot com and in our show notes. Creating

670
00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:37.440
the podcast has a lot of work, so if you

671
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.519
want to help us out financially, you can do so

672
00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:43.519
by supporting us on Patreon at patreon dot com. Slash

673
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:44.639
She studied as an own podcast