March 19, 2026

The Birth Control Trials and Dr Helen Rodriguez Trias

The Birth Control Trials and Dr Helen Rodriguez Trias
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The birth control pill revolutionized women’s independence in the US and so many places, but came at the cost of Puerto Rican women, who were experimented on without consent in the birth control trials of the 1950’s. One third of the island’s women were sterilized during these trials. And one woman stood out in the fight against this injustice, she was Dr Helen Rodriguez Trias

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Sources

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Rodr%C3%ADguez_Tr%C3%ADas
https://massivesci.com/articles/helen-rodriguez-trias-science-heroes/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1447119/
https://web.archive.org/web/20031016140115/
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/changingthefaceofmedicine/physicians/biography_273.html
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1122157
/https://archive.ph/qzv60
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/9/28/the-bitter-pill/
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/pill-puerto-rico-pill-trials/
https://medium.com/the-lily/how-puerto-rican-women-were-used-to-test-the-birth-control-pill-7453a3b6ab73 
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/gregory-pincus-1903-1967/ 
https://womanisrational.uchicago.edu/2022/09/21/margaret-sanger-the-duality-of-a-ambitious-feminist-and-racist-eugenicist/ 
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/pill-dr-john-rock-1890-1984/ 
https://remezcla.com/culture/birth-control-testing-puerto-rico/ 
https://www.wbur.org/news/2023/05/24/oral-contraceptives-history-puerto-rico-testing-massachusetts-ethics 
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/10/10029088/puerto-rico-sterilization-abortion-reproductive-rights-history

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WEBVTT

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Everyone. This is Carmen and Christina and this is They

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Stood as Unknown, a podcast where we talk about Latin

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American history, sometimes deterrible and deals with type topics like racism, corruption,

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and genocide. But more than that, it's also about resistance,

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power and community. And today it's about a woman a woman, yes,

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women only this month except the first episode of the month,

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that was an accident form to talk about freaking Joe

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of all people, right, what a disgrace to the month

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that we had that episode, although it was fun to

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talk shit about him. Okay, yeah, so yeah, let's just

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jump right into it. Let's do it. The birth control

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pill revolutionized women's independence in the US and so many places,

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but came at the cost of Puerto Rican women who

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were experimented on without consent in the birth control trials

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of the nineteen fifties. One third of the island's women

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were sterilized during these trials, and one woman stood out

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in the fight against this injustice. She was doctor Helen

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Rodriguez Thrias. Okay, doctor Helendriusrias. HM. That's today's topic. But

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before we talk about Helen, let me put some respect

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on that Doc Dora, bitch exactly. My bad, my bie,

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my bad, Doctor Helen Rodriguz Trias. Let's do a quick

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refresher on the birth control trials, because we first talked

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about this way back in episode eighty nine, Wow in

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twenty twenty four four. Carmen doesn't even remember doing these notes.

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I don't, which is hence the refresher. So, John Rock

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and Gregory Pinkis, I remember these bitches. You remember they

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were the pioneers of the birth control pill. Both got

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their star where at Harvard? Yeah, Harvard. It's always Harvard.

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It's always one of those, were those cult whenever it

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involves an evil dollaror yeah, as if it involves a

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doctor going into perto Ico, they went to Harvard. Oh yeah,

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for sure. Yeah, I think of the fuck is this

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bitch's name, doctor Cornelius Rhodes comes to my motherfucker bitch? Yeah, exactly.

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So in the early nineteen fifties, Margaret Sanger At another

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woman named Catherine McCormick approached Gregory Pinkis about developing the pill.

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And for those who don't remember who she is or

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how shitty she is, Carmen, do you want to tell

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us about her? Sure? Sure, she's known for her work

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as a feminist, a feminist queen. Some people like to

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think of her ass because yes, yeah, she did help

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bring birth control to the US and around the world.

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But what is less known is Margaret's dark motivations behind

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wanting women to have access to birth control, these motivations

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being racism and eugenics. There it is. Marge was a

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staunch eugenist, she wrote about in many of her writings,

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and she saw birth control as a safe way to

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limit the growth of certain populations. Certain Margaret believed the

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United States was suffering because of uncontrolled reproduction, especially from

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quote feeble minded people living in city slums. And feeble

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minded was basically everyone that was like poor, white, Black

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and Mexican. Yeah, Latin, So that included poor white people.

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Yeah yeah, yeah, so I said poor exactly, they were included.

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They forget now, but they were included. Yeah. And now

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they think there are one uh paycheck away from being

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a millionaire, when reality there are one paycheck less from

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being unhoused. You know, yeah, as most people in our

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states are of us are Yeah. Margaret described to the

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eugenus believe that feeble mindedness was associated with abnormally high

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rates of fertility, which is also described as a quote

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biological menace, and she believed feeble minded people shouldn't have

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the personal liberty to reproduce as much as normal people.

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I just feel disgusting to even say all this, Like,

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I can't believe people thought that and still think that honestly. Yeah,

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Margaret saw birth control as a solution and was quoted

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saying birth control is really the greatest and most truly

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eugenic method, and its adoption as part of the program

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of eugenics would immediately give a concrete and realistic power

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to that science end quote. In a writing call the

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Pivot of Civilization, Margaret wrote several pages about a sixteen

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year old the black girl she knew from one of

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the planned par Net clinics, who was supposedly feeble minded,

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and who supposed uncontrolled or production resulted in sixteen children

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who either died at a young age or became criminals.

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Of course, there's a lot more to say about this.

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I recommend the article I use, which is linked in

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the show notes, but I just wanted to give a

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brief description of Margaret Singer, who backed the creators of

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the birth control pill. And yes, it has dark origin,

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just like everything does. But that's no reason to demonize

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the birth control pill today because there's a powerful, rich

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movement pushing anti birth control messaging, not only the youth.

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But I can't tell you how many fucking friends I

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have had that I've been like, Oh, I'm getting off

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birth control because of the hormones. And I understand affects

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some people differently, you know, And let me tell you

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that I love birth control because of the hormones. It's

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amazing living my best self because of birth control. But

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it came meta cost. It can meta cost, which is

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what we're talking about today. So like Margaret, John Rock

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believed birth control was necessary to control the world population.

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Another staunch eugenist, in an interview, John W. Said, quote,

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people like to have babies, and this is particularly so

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among primitive peoples end a quote. And Gregory Pinks, on

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the other hand, was known as doctor Frankenstein for his

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innovative research like IBF in rabbits, and he was not

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so much interested in the eugenus side of this. He

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was more interested in the science. He once said, quote,

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I am against women having sexual freedom, but I hastened

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to add that I'm also post to sexual freedom among them,

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sexual oppression for everybody. Nobody could have sex, nobody, not I,

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not you, not he, not the man, not the woman,

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not the da thems, exactly exactly. Gregory and John used

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to correspond in the nineteen thirties and later reconnected at

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a scientific conference in nineteen fifty two, where they chattered

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about their work and found out they both use the

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same drugs in that work. Gregory ended up asking John

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to collaborate with him in a TikTok of it. No,

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I was just kidding, yes, to collaborate. Do you want

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to collab on him? Do you want to collabse So

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they collabed on some clinical trials for birth control, first

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in Boston on women who were interned at an asylum,

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later in Yeah, and if it's not an asylum, it's

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a Latin American country, m or both asylum first and

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then yeah, thinking of the Guatemalan syphilis experiment, well, exactly,

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this was an asylum, and then later Puerto Rico. Yeah.

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Concerns with Gregory's ethics and methodology arose during the Boston

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experiments in nineteen fifty four, with the goal of learning

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about the pills possible tranquilizing effect. Gregory launched a new

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trial with sixteen patients at the Say Hospital and Asylum.

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He gave them birth control prototypes and then sliced into

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their uteruses to understand the pills effect on ovulation. After

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he published his findings, his peers were critical of his methodology,

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with one doctor saying, quote, this use of guinea pigs

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of chronic psychotic patients who are not able to give

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or withhold violid mission in physiological research of this type

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must be as repugnant to many of your readers as

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it is to me. End quote. I'm surprised someone said anything, though, yeah,

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because this was like the norm back then. But Gregory

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Pinks didn't care. He kept experimenting on as silent patients,

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even overseeing an experiment in which scientists under Gregory's direction

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performed testicular biopsies on men with schizophrenia without anesthesia. That's

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just torture. That's not even like, yeah, that's not any

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people did the most disgusting things, like I'm thinking, like

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how the field of obgyn came kynacology came to be

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basically on the torture of black women, enslaved black women. Yes,

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yes exactly. He supposedly did this, these testicular biopsies on

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men with schizophrenia to learn about men's current castration anxiety.

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And obviously this is horrible. Some of this was like

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the norm back then, like we just said, but also

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there was just no standards for obtaining medical consent. The

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reason we have medical consentitay is because of things like this.

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Gregory decided Puerto Rico was the perfect place to continue

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the human trials because there were no anti birth control

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laws in place, and because there was an already established

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network of birth control clinics. There were sixty seven clinics

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providing family planning services to Puerto Rican women already, and eugenesis,

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like Margaret Sanger and these two doctors, John Rock and

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Gregory Pinkis, targeted Puerto Rico because of their fear of

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poor Hispanic overpopulation. Eugenics also had a lot to do

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with the more liberal birth control laws in Puerto Rico,

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with for sterilization having been codified into law back then.

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In nineteen thirty three, the Governor of Puerto Rico wrote

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to Margaret Sanger saying, quote, the tragedy of the situation

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is that the more intelligent classes voluntarily restrict their birth rate,

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while the most vicious, most ignorant, and most helpless and

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hopeless part of the population multiplies with tremendous rapidity. End quote.

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Don't like that, right, all torrible. Of course, Puerto Rico's

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long colonial as in their colony, and the United States

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is colonizing Puerto Rico. This is a factor as well.

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Gabriela Soto la Veaga, a professor of the history of

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science at Harvard said, quote, because of its semi colonial

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status of the US, the ability to test on these

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women's body seem like these territories are an extension of US. Yeah,

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like they see the people as expendable, just like they

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see Puerto Rico as expendable. Like this is just a

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plaything for us. Yes. Yes, prior to with control pills,

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Puerto Rican women use lauperacion or surgery sterilization to prefer pregnancy. Although,

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as we've had other episodes on this as well, for

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s is also a thing. Yeah, it was also a thing.

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Later research from the nineteen eighties showed that about sixteen

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percent of the prodicing women who underwent serilization did not

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consent to it, but many producing women were eager to

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have control over their family planning. And there's a lot

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more to say about sterilization because in addition to sometimes

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it being forced, women were also coerced and manipulated to

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undergo sterilization and l'ao parasion as it became known. In sterilization,

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it was free, and that's already dicor and itself not

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as saying the same thing. Wow, women were pressured into

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sterilizations by employers who strongly favored sterilized employees. Health workers

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also went door to door begging mothers who already had

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two children to undergo hysterectomies or tubal ligations, which is

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highly aunethical. Yes, do we need to say that? No?

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Not really Still, but the women were also light about

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the permanency of la operacion and they were told it

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could be reversed. And this also reminds me of the

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sterilization cases in California, and that's coersion as well. Yeah,

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that is being led to about it. Yeah. Regardless of

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this ongoing corision and pressure, Puerto Rican women were eager

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to be able to have control over their production. In fact,

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John and Gregory often had more participants sign up than

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they needed, and they soon expanded their program experiment to

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other areas of Puerto Rico. Gregory Pinkus also felt that

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if he could show that quote dumb, poor women from

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Puerto Rico could follow the birth control per regimen, then

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women anywhere could bullshit. The trials started out small, with

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senso Ra monte Garcia, a colleague of Gregory and John's

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at work. Chester Foundation, the foundation that was funding the hospital,

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recruited twenty medical students from the University of Puerto Rico,

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who the subject of our episode is a graduate from

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She graduated from the University of Puerto Rico, with over

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half eventually dropping out, and this made Gregory Pinks and

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John Rock mad, but they had a reason to drop

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out because of the pills, grueling side effects, and the

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amount of time that it required from the participants. They

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experienced blood clots, bleeding, nausea, they had to take their

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temperature and a vaginal smear daily. Too much, then, yeah,

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too much already, But that's not all. Each month their

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services were dilated and then tissue from their uteruses were collected,

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and in more extreme cases, some of the women underwent

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leperotomies liberotomies in which a large incision was made to

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the abdominal cavity so that their ovaries could be observed

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in real time. Oh my god, sounds horrible. We could

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only hope they were given anesthesia. Were going on? Please.

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In April nineteen fifty six, Gregory, John and their team

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moved on to conduct their research at Rio Pierras. A

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memo from Gregory to John indicated that two hundred and

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sixty five women they recruited were sufficiently intelligent, women for

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whom pregnancy would be acceptable or at worse, inconvenient. Although

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women were eager for non permanent family planning options, Gregory

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and John ran into similar problems at their previous hospital.

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Over twenty percent of the women dropped out of the

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trial because of the pill side effects because of how

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time consuming their participation was. There was also a mistrust

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in the trials, with the newspaper El Imparseal the Impartial,

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calling the tests a campaign to sterilize women. The women

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complained of nausea, dizziness, headaches, stomach pain, and vomiting. These

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side effects are still calming when you take birth control pills,

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but imagine taking what you take now, but like three times. Yeah,

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because that's how strong these pills. They were still testing

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out the prescription. These side effects were so serious that

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doctor Adris Rice Ray, a faculty member of the Puerto

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Rican Medical School and a medical directory of the Puerto

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Rican Family Planning Association and who oversaw the trials, reported

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to Gregory that the ten milligramd does caused too many

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problems to be generally acceptable. But Gregory John Pinkitt's wringing

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in whatever whatever, dude, they dismissed. Doctor and Rice raised

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concerns and they believed that the complaints were psycho semitic.

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These women were just making it up. These symptoms are

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not real, and whatever physical symptoms were actually real were

240
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nothing compared to the benefit of the pill, because who

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listens to women, let alone Puerto Rican women. Please, these

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women don't know their own bodies, they don't know what

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they're feeling. No, you can't trust them. M The doctors

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attributed the psychosomatic symptoms to Puerto Rican women being hyperactive emotionally. Also,

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on top of all that, three women who participated in

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the trial died and there was no investigation at all

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to see if the pill had anything to do with

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the death of these women, and like if you have

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a certain fact risk factors, like the pill can totally

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kill you. Yeah, like I forgot you smoke, But yeah,

251
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there is certain things. Yeah if you smell more high risk,

252
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if you have heart issues. So yeah. Years later, it

253
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was discovered that the scientists lied to the women by

254
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failing to disclose that the pill was in its experimental stages,

255
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that they were the experiment. Yeah. They never told the

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women they were participants in a clinical trial. They made it.

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They presented it like it was already good to go.

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The Puerto Rican women participated in the trial until nineteen

259
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sixty four, even while the pill became available to women

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in the US. But even the US experience severe side

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effects and lawsuits were launched against the manufacturers. Of course,

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the difference here is that the women in the US

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were not tricked into taking the experimental medicine. They were

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just taking it. It was already available, allowed to have

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informed consent. Yes. Delia Mayestre, one of the participants in

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the trial, told The Orlando Sentinel, the newspaper, the experiments

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were both good and bad. Why didn't they let us

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make some decisions for ourselves? I have difficulty explaining that

269
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time to my own grown children. I have very mixed

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feelings about the entire thing, and of course, of course

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she does because they were lied to. Okay, And this

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leads us to doctor Helen Rodriguez Thrias, who stood up

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against the birth control trials in Puerto Rico. She was

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born July seventh, nineteen twenty nine, in New York City,

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but two days after her birth, her family returned to

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Puerto Rico. When she was ten, her family went back

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to New York City and her mom had been a

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teacher in Puerto Rico, but in New York she was

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unable to get a teacher's license. So this was kind

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of like Helen's first look at the difference between Puerto

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Rico and being in the US, and like how it

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was not fair, how the inequity was bearing its ugly

283
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head in a more evident way now. So because you

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couldn't get a teacher's license, this forced her mom to

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get creative on how to make ends meet, which included

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taking in borders in their apartment in New York City.

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Helen experienced racism and discrimination, but this didn't stop her

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from excelling in school. She got good grades but was

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placed in a class with students with learning disabilities. Could

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you guess why what made her put her in this class?

291
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Because she didn't speak English fully or had an accent?

292
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She was bilingual? Oh okay, No because of her last name,

293
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because of the Hispanic last name. Oh it's close, yeah,

294
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but worse because they're not well. Actually, I mean they

295
00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:17.799
did this in the schools like that. We talked about

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the Mexican schools. It was based on last name, not

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like proficiency with English or anything. It wasn't until her

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teacher heard her reciting a poem that her teacher realized

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that Helen was a gifted learner, and she sent her

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to a class for gifted children. Later in life, she

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would go on to say, Helen would have go on

302
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to say, quote, one day I was called upon to

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recite a poem, and I knew of the poem by heart.

304
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I might have just as well gone down the tubes

305
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academically if that teacher hadn't moved me out of that class.

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It just makes you think of how many mixed me,

307
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think of how many kids were yeah, and how it

308
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takes just one person to notice, and it shouldn't take

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one person, Like people should be where they're supposed to

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be you know what I mean, right, right, it should

311
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be like equal yeah, equal education, exactly equitable, yes, yes.

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She continued excelling at school and later, after graduating in

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high school, she was set on becoming a doctor. She

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chose a medical career because quote, it combined the things

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I love the most, science and people end quote. I

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love that, right. She also chose to go to school

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in Puerto Rico because the island had a really good

318
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scholarship system. She attended the University of Puerto Rico, which

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was the home of the student faction of the Puerto

320
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Rican Nationalist Party and it had a strong independence movement.

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In general, the school did, and so because of the

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students' ties with the nationalist movement, Pedro Albisu Campos was

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invited to speak at the university by the student council,

324
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but the university's chancellor, Jime Beneath this was against this.

325
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Jime USA he does and he didn't allow Petrol Viso

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onto campus, and in response, the students went on strike

327
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at Helen was among these students. Okay, Helen, Yeah, her

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first like radicalization was tied to the Puerto Rican Independent movement,

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but her fat more, her brother specifically didn't approve of this,

330
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and he threatened to cut off for college expenses. And

331
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so she returned to New York and she didn't finish school.

332
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Then in New York, when she returned, she got married

333
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:36.599
to David Newmark Brainan and had three kids. But then

334
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she returned to Puerto Rico to pursue her degree. Okay,

335
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.680
and she returned to University of Puerto Rico, where she

336
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again became involved in the Puerto Rican independence movement. You

337
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can't hold this back. You know, the seas are there

338
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.000
and they're going to grow. Yeah. She was thirty one

339
00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:59.680
when she graduated from medical school, just before having her

340
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four kid Damn. During her residency, she established the first

341
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center for the care of newborn babies in Puerto Rico.

342
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Sometimes it amazes me how much some woman can get done.

343
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This fucking lady had four fucking kids. She finished med

344
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school and established the first center for the care of

345
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:22.480
newborns and Bertrico. Like what, women are amazing while this

346
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:24.759
bitch can't even figure out her work I routine damn.

347
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And this played a huge part in the decrease of

348
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the death rate for newborns on the island. Amazing. Within

349
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three years it decreased fifty percent. Wow, that's a lot.

350
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And she did that. She did that. She no, but yeah.

351
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She also went on to establish a medical practice in

352
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the field of pediatrics after her residency, and through all

353
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this she was divorced, remarried, and divorced again. Wow, she

354
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:03.279
can do it all, truly. In nineteen seventy she returned

355
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to New York and divorce transformed her. It's what moved

356
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:10.960
her to bridge science with the personal experience, is what

357
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.759
she would go on to say. Marriage triggered quite a

358
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:16.839
bit of growth in me toward understanding what happens internally

359
00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:19.480
to people and what happens in their lives and what

360
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:24.279
they can do or not do. End quote. In New York,

361
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:30.680
she worked at the Lincoln Hospital. Ooh, if you're not

362
00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:34.000
a new listener or not new to like New York

363
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:37.720
Latin or Latina history, Lincoln Hospital should ring a bell

364
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:40.359
if you're a new listener. We have an episode on

365
00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:44.920
the Lincoln Offensive. But the Lincoln Hospital was the very

366
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:49.799
hospital the Young Lords occupied in their Lincoln Offensive. It

367
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:53.640
was an uprising and if you remember from that episode,

368
00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:56.319
they had a list of demands and part of it

369
00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:00.319
was to bring in new administration that would identify better

370
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:03.480
with the population served down Linkinn Hospital. Because of the

371
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:07.319
Lincoln Offensive, she was brought in as the head of

372
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:12.319
the pediatric department. Amazing, right, Like how all these topics

373
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:16.880
come together. Yeah, And if you recall from that episode,

374
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:19.759
this was a severely underfunded hospital in one of the

375
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:23.359
most low income communities, which serviced mostly Puerto Ricans but

376
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:27.000
also black patients. And about her working there, a colleague

377
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:29.759
would say, quote, at a time when Puerto Rican women

378
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:33.400
were sorely missing from the professional health fields, She's stood

379
00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:36.240
as a beacon of hope to those she served end

380
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:40.559
quote Amazing, Yes, truly, and that's the kind of represent

381
00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:45.759
representation that really matters now politics as I'm talking about. Yes, Yes,

382
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:52.519
At Lincoln Hospital, Helen doctor Helen lobby to give all

383
00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:55.640
workers of voice in the administrative and pasion care issues.

384
00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:59.000
She became involved with the Puerto Rican community and encouraged

385
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.720
the healthcare workers the hospital to become aware of the

386
00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:04.720
cultural issues that needs of the community. And this was

387
00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:08.400
like the most like woe hospital. Yeah, Like I mean,

388
00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:11.000
like almost all of the US one could say, like

389
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:14.880
the workers that that saw Lincoln Hospital as a place

390
00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:18.839
of employment. They were there to serve the community. They

391
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:21.960
wanted to be there, they wanted to be there. Exactly.

392
00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:25.000
It was around this time that she attended an abortion

393
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:28.440
conference at Bernard College, and after attending this conference, she

394
00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:33.720
began to advocate for free abortions. Free abortions, Yes, abortions

395
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:35.880
for everyone. You get one, you and when you get

396
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.559
if you want one, if you want one, if if,

397
00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:43.519
and for more widely available birth control for poorer women.

398
00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:47.960
She recalled her time in Puerto Rico with more reverence.

399
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:51.240
Is that a word? Is that the word I'm looking for? Like?

400
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:55.680
This conference awoke her. It made her look at her time.

401
00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:57.839
Were to go at any light? Okay, that's what I'm

402
00:25:57.839 --> 00:25:59.920
trying to say. Yeah, I to think about that one.

403
00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:02.079
I even wrote instanwardly, I know, I talk of what

404
00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:03.920
I was going to write. I was like, how do

405
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:06.079
I word this? But yeah, when any light with different

406
00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:10.400
eyes and you light, yes, exactly. She recalled the specific

407
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:12.920
time during her residency where she watched the mother of

408
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:17.400
five tragically die from a dodgy abortion. Oh terrible, And

409
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:23.319
that was so so common back then and is more

410
00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:29.759
common again because Robby Wade. Exactly, while in Puerto Rico.

411
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:33.079
She wasn't involved in the women's movement, but this conference,

412
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:35.519
like we said, like after this conference, she was like

413
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:40.519
fixated on the women's issues she missed in her time

414
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:44.480
in Puerto Rico. She recalled another medical student criticizing a

415
00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:48.000
lecture for saying, quote, there are only two kinds of abortion,

416
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:54.599
therapeutic and criminal. Hm wrong, Yes, exactly. The implication was

417
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:58.400
that there were no indications for abortion except in cases

418
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.200
of pending death of the mother. The only student that

419
00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:04.640
had called out the lecturer said, this is a Catholic perspective.

420
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:11.000
There's no discourse like this. The way you're viewing abortion

421
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:15.440
is religious and that's not Yeah, that's not it. That

422
00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:18.720
made doctor Helen really think more critically, and she began

423
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:21.559
to look around, and she saw that only those who

424
00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:24.319
could afford an abortion could get one if they wanted one.

425
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:27.720
If a wealthy person knew the right person, that abortion

426
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:30.039
could be written up as a different procedure like in

427
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:34.200
a apendectomy. Those with means would leave the US for

428
00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:39.039
Havana to get abortions because it could. That's true like

429
00:27:39.160 --> 00:27:42.000
in mainland US as well, you know what I mean. Yeah,

430
00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:46.079
So like people now in states that had those trigger laws.

431
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:50.839
Once they overturned Roe v. Wade, they immediately lost access

432
00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:55.359
to abortions, but that didn't mean that people stopped needing abortions.

433
00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:59.319
And so those that are able to go out of

434
00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:02.279
state and just like they all always have even before

435
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:07.319
Roe v. Wade, And that meant that rich people, rich

436
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:09.799
people who are trying to take away our rights now,

437
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.920
like that fucking bitch Ivanka, That fucking bitch had an

438
00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:17.480
abortion over here, supporting her fucking rapist dad and his

439
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.559
movement in trying to take abortion away when she had

440
00:28:20.599 --> 00:28:23.079
a fucking abortion herself. And so of the Trump's wives,

441
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:25.359
I think one of them, Yeah, they're like they're hypo.

442
00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:30.079
Always rules for the not or whatever it goes, rules

443
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:32.799
for the not for me. Yeah, you're stupid, right, I

444
00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:37.160
can remember what the event with the am I the

445
00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:43.240
the so, Yeah, she began to see the inequities and

446
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:46.519
the way obgyns treated all women and this began to

447
00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:51.519
really bother her. It was the woman's health movement that

448
00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:55.880
brought her to feminism, especially that conference as she went

449
00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:58.880
to right in nineteen seventy. And this is a quote

450
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:03.200
from her about this time in her life. Quote, the

451
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:08.079
specialty of obstetrics and gynecology created folks very geared toward

452
00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:11.640
surgical solutions. This was one reason why cesarian section rates

453
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:15.920
were going up. This didn't necessarily respect women's wishes regarding

454
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:20.240
child bearing or other issues. The only way to affect

455
00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:22.839
change was for more women to go into the professions

456
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:25.880
and in still a different perspective on more human touch

457
00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:29.559
and a more respectful relationship with patients. She was also

458
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:32.799
asked about how it was for woman of color starting

459
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.680
out in what was predominantly a white women's movement, and

460
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:39.680
she said it wasn't just color, it was social class.

461
00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:42.799
The movement was very diverse, but the more public positions

462
00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:46.720
articulated by the movement didn't include experiences or concerns of

463
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:50.720
women of color or of poor women. I went to

464
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:54.440
conferences and get togethers. One big one in Anyok was

465
00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:57.880
attended by several thousand women and the women mostly talked

466
00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:00.440
about cultural issues the Third World women and as we

467
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:03.400
call ourselves Zen would get together in craft to social

468
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:06.319
and economic agenda and we going to have a movement.

469
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:09.640
It has to be about equity, about getting economic power,

470
00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:13.480
about ending violence against women. And they did their presentation

471
00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:17.480
during this conference. They made it more concrete, They focused

472
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:19.960
on important issues, and they made it intersectional. This is

473
00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:24.440
what she intersectionality, yes, which is what white women were

474
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:28.160
not doing. And she goes on to say that, yeah, yeah,

475
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:30.039
you had to deal with the inequities, which is what

476
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:34.640
was lacking. And it was this conference and her experience

477
00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:38.319
in Puerto Rico that made her become a founding member

478
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:45.279
of the Committee to End Sterilization Abuse Amazing otherwise known

479
00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:49.440
as Sessa. Then in nineteen seventy one, she became a

480
00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:53.279
founding member of the Women's Caucus of the American Public

481
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:58.599
Health Association. She founded abortion rights, fought for the abolishment

482
00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:03.920
of enforced sterileation, and sought neo natal care for underserved people.

483
00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:07.319
In nineteen seventy nine, she became a founding member for

484
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:11.240
the Committee for Abortion Rights and Against Sterilization Abuse, so

485
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.319
just joining the two causes really and testified before the

486
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:18.640
Department of Health, Education, and Welfare for a passage of

487
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:25.160
federal sterilization guidelines. And she talked about this in a

488
00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:29.920
nineteen seventy four Boston conference. So this is her words quote.

489
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:32.759
We had a panel on sterilization abuse, which had to

490
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:35.559
do with disrespect for women's needs, which is in hopes.

491
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:39.519
We brought up the Ralph suit brought on behalf of

492
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.880
two black allegedly these are the words that they use

493
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:46.759
back then, So sorry, but allegedly retarded girls many Lee

494
00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:50.480
Ralph h twelve and Mary Alice Ralph age fourteen, who

495
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:52.839
had been serilized without their knowledge or consent in a

496
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:58.240
federally funded program in Montgomery, Alabama, right end quote. And

497
00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:03.359
so when they presented this like law to end sterilization,

498
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:09.039
they use that case in Montgomery, Alabama, And she drafted

499
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:12.720
the guidelines which would require a woman's reign consent to

500
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.440
sterilization in a language they could understand, which is like

501
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:21.880
such an important thing to include. Yeah, and it also

502
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:25.279
set a waiting period between consent between the consent and

503
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:29.240
the sterilization procedure. She is also credited with helping to

504
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:31.839
expand the range of public health services for women and

505
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:35.359
children in minority and low income populations in not only

506
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:39.400
the US, but also Central and South America, Africa, Asia,

507
00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:41.359
and the Middle East. Oh my god, what didn't she

508
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:47.920
do exactly? And at that Boston conference where they brought

509
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:53.720
this case and argued for laws to ban sterilization, she

510
00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:57.599
met a lot of resistance. So let me read this

511
00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:00.720
quote here. This is from her as well. Quote. We

512
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:04.039
got a lot of flak from white women who had

513
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:07.160
private doctors and wanted to be sterilized. They had been

514
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:11.920
denied for their requests for sterilization because of their status unmarried,

515
00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:15.599
or the number of their children, usually the doctor that

516
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:19.240
they had too few. They therefore opposed a waiting period

517
00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:24.480
or any other regulation that they interpreted as limiting access.

518
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:28.200
While young white middle class women were denied their requests

519
00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:32.920
for sterilization, low income women of certain ethnicity were misled

520
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:36.279
or coerced into them. That is so interesting that you

521
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:39.279
had this quote in this moment, because when you were

522
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:44.240
talking about the wanting to implement their goal of implementing

523
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:49.039
the weight periods for sterilizations, I literally had the same thought, like,

524
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:53.680
because people want to get sterilized. Some people want to

525
00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:58.039
get sterilized, and then they get upset and rightfully so,

526
00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:01.319
like at being denied or having way things like that.

527
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:07.039
But sometimes there's a reason. Yeah, there's a reason for that,

528
00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:13.280
And I feel like people don't think past themselves, you know. Sorry, Yeah,

529
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:18.000
it's just so I don't know, it's like she she

530
00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:22.840
specifically mentioned like young white, middle class women. We're the ones.

531
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:25.880
They received flack from white women for this, But it

532
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:32.039
reminds me of the for siilization case in California, where

533
00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:36.639
while women were protesting because obviously, if someone takes away

534
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:42.079
you're like, like, feminism includes reproductive rights and whether you

535
00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:45.920
want to or not want to write right, both of

536
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:52.239
those things, but people forget about people wanting children. Yeah,

537
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:58.400
And so during the protests, calling out the hospital saying

538
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:03.519
like end for civilization, fucking white women were protesting for

539
00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:07.039
abortion in front of them. It's like, you're not the

540
00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:12.239
one being forced to write a border or to lose

541
00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:15.880
your productive rights if you wanted them, and so it's

542
00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:21.280
supposed to be both ways. So like, yeah, people who

543
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:26.920
want the opportunity to have children, meaning to not be

544
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:30.840
forcibly sterilized, should have that option, and people who do

545
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:34.519
not want children should be able to not have children,

546
00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:37.440
you know exactly. And some of these people were, like

547
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:40.559
you said, were only thinking of themselves. Yeah, And this

548
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:44.440
quote of hers specifically made me think of the people

549
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:51.719
in California for protesting against these Mexican women who were

550
00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:55.679
forcibly sterilized, Like I just know they were like anti protesters.

551
00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:57.599
I thought they were just saying yeah, no, no, no,

552
00:35:57.639 --> 00:36:01.760
they were they were like anti protests. That. Okay, that's worse.

553
00:36:02.679 --> 00:36:06.000
I kind of sworn I mentioned this, Well, you probably did.

554
00:36:06.039 --> 00:36:07.599
I just mean, like right now, when you said it,

555
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:09.480
I thought, yeah, for some reason, they were just there,

556
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:13.000
which does make sense. Yeah. No, I'm like, it's a

557
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:21.559
it's a white woman feminism. It's privileged, yeah, which is privilege? Yes, okay,

558
00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:24.960
So she also said quote, I began to understand that

559
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:27.840
we were coming to different conclusions because we were living

560
00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:32.280
different realities. People have different perspectives. The women's movement has

561
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:35.039
been successful only to the extent that it shares experience,

562
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:38.800
finds common ground, and fights for the same thing. I

563
00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:41.280
am proud that I made my contribution and moving forward

564
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:45.079
the dialogue among many women, a dialogue that took place

565
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.199
over many years. We had to listen to each other,

566
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:50.400
We had to find out each other's reality. For example,

567
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:52.880
I had a professional salary. I didn't know what it's

568
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:56.440
like to live on welfare. So yeah, just like emphasizing

569
00:36:56.559 --> 00:37:01.719
how she's talking about intersection intersectionality, Yeah, yeah, which is

570
00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:12.880
like necessary. Yes, her work against sterilization was just the

571
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:18.239
beginning In the nineteen eighties, doctor Helen Rodriguestrias also served

572
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:20.920
as medical director of the New York State Department of

573
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:25.400
Health AIDS Institute. She worked on behalf of women for

574
00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:29.960
minority groups who were infected with HIV. Wow, which is

575
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.039
like the most intersectional thing you can do. At a

576
00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:35.840
time when people were like scared of HIV, she was

577
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:39.480
directly working with them. In the nineteen ninety she served

578
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:43.840
as health co director of the Pacific Institute for Women's Health,

579
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:48.039
a nonprofit research and advocacy group dedicated to improving women's

580
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:53.039
women's well being worldwide and focus on reproduction. She was

581
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:56.000
a founding member of both the Women's Caucus and the

582
00:37:56.079 --> 00:38:02.519
Hispanic Caucus of the American Public Health Association APHA, and

583
00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:06.519
the first Latina to serve as president of the APHAO.

584
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:11.480
She once stated that her biggest inspiration came from brands

585
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:14.199
of her own mother, aunts, and sisters, who faced so

586
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:17.119
many restraints in their struggle to flourish and realize their

587
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:23.599
full potential. She was also a pioneer in pediatric tuberculosis. Wow.

588
00:38:23.800 --> 00:38:26.880
Oh my god, she literally did it all. No, really,

589
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:30.280
this kind of makes me think of the work the

590
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:33.960
Young Lords did for tuberculosis clinics. I'm wondering if maybe

591
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:36.920
they could have worked together in this because she worked

592
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:40.079
at the Lincoln Hospital and worked closely with the Portkin

593
00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:44.039
community who was so affected by tuberculosis during these years.

594
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:50.000
And so I have an Inklan thought these might be related. Yeah, Okay.

595
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:52.880
In nineteen ninety six, she helped found the Pacific Institute

596
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:57.199
for Women's Health in LA, based nonprofit dedicated to improving

597
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:00.360
women's health and well being. She was all So a

598
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:04.599
consultant for the International Health Programs Public Institute, where her

599
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.440
focus was improving family planning and healthcare in South and

600
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:14.000
Central America. Wow. And the deputy director of this institute,

601
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:18.159
James Williams, said about her, she didn't seem like a radical,

602
00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:22.719
this middle aged lady, conservatively dressed with a lovely smile. Oh,

603
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:25.880
but she certainly was a radical in her desire for

604
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:29.400
change and her ability to push for it. We should

605
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:34.280
all be radicals for positive and meaningful change to prove

606
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:40.039
everyone's lives. Yes. Her most recent work, towards the end

607
00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:45.679
of her life, she was working for the same organization,

608
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:49.239
which was involved in identifying and enlisting local leaders for

609
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:53.519
reprojective health programs in sal and Vehico. So like amazing

610
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:56.360
would go on to leave these organizations, wow, because she

611
00:39:56.440 --> 00:39:58.119
was like aging out of it. Yeah, so she was

612
00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:01.440
like looking for futurely because she's like, I can't be

613
00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:04.400
the one I have to rest at some point. Yes, Yes,

614
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:09.920
ensuring that underserved populations, especially the rural indigenous, were not forgotten.

615
00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:13.760
That same guy you mentioned, the director of the organization,

616
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:18.119
James Williams, said quote, she wanted to cause sustainable change

617
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:21.960
within these countries. She was completely dedicated to making these

618
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:28.079
things happen. Amazing. Yes. On January eighth, two thousand and one,

619
00:40:29.320 --> 00:40:34.760
President President Bill Clinton. Maybe the only good thing he did, possibly,

620
00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:40.280
quite possibly, he awarded doctor Helen Rodriguez Trias with the

621
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:44.159
Presidential Citizens Medal, the second highest civilian award in the

622
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:48.599
US Wow, for her work on behalf of women, children,

623
00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:52.599
people with HIV and AIDS, and poor people. And that

624
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:55.199
was actually deserved because some people have gotten this support

625
00:40:55.239 --> 00:41:00.239
for norwek e bulshit. Yeah, but she deserved it this

626
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:09.559
and more. She died later that year. I wanted her

627
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:14.440
to live forever. No, for real, I'm genuinely sad right now. Yeah,

628
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:20.079
she honestly amazing. It was just so inspiring December twenty one,

629
00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:25.639
two thousand and one, due to lung cancer. In twenty nineteen,

630
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:29.519
Charlene McCrae announced that New York City would build a

631
00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:33.960
statue honoring doctor Helen Triaz Rodriguez in Saint Mary's Park

632
00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:37.360
near Lincoln Hospital. We have to go there, to go there,

633
00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:40.280
we had to go there. I need toure all the

634
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:43.480
historical spots we've talked about seriously, and I need to

635
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:46.559
see the statue. I just can't believe. I can't believe

636
00:41:46.599 --> 00:41:49.960
a woman like this existed, Like I can because of course,

637
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:54.360
but I'm just like in awe of her right now. Yes,

638
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:57.320
I'm going to leave you with her words. We need health,

639
00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:00.280
but above all, we need to create grounding for health

640
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:04.679
public policy that redresses and salvages the growing inequities. We

641
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:08.360
cannot achieve a healthier US without achieving a healthier, more

642
00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:13.119
equitable healthcare system and ultimately a more equitable society. Oh

643
00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:19.480
my god, oh my god. Nothing better has ever been spoken. No, really,

644
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:24.440
and yeah, that was doctor Helen rodriguezri Wow wow, wow,

645
00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:36.880
wow wow. Truly an amazing pioneer woman, doctor, mother, researcher, advocate, radical.

646
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:46.000
Oh my god radical, Yeah, yeah, inspiring, yeah okay, well

647
00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:50.960
what a wonderful and yeah, but I wanted to, like,

648
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:53.599
I know, it was like repeating things that we need

649
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:57.159
a context because the context was from a longer time ago, right,

650
00:42:57.320 --> 00:43:00.920
and it it formed and informed her work truly, like

651
00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:06.400
so so yeah, well, I guess if anyone is interested,

652
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:09.719
we have a Patreon where we yap about current events.

653
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:14.039
Sometimes it's silly, like about reality TV. Sometimes it's serious,

654
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:18.320
like about the state of the world crying inside. So yeah,

655
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:21.079
we have Pittreon. I forgot how much it costs a month,

656
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:24.519
Like a cup of coffee, okay, yeah, one one cup

657
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:26.840
of coffee. Some people get a weekly or daily cup

658
00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:31.760
of coffee, a weekly weekly bitch, I'll be dead. Uh yeah.

659
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:36.280
So for the price of one coffee from your daily

660
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:42.519
coffee or maybe weekly treat of coffee shop coffee, you

661
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:47.079
can hear us yap yes, yes, and support the podcast

662
00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:51.119
what else? What else? What else? I don't know? Recommend

663
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:53.760
us to a history loving friend, follow us on the socials,

664
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:57.480
and thank you so much Christina for this beautiful, wonderful episode,

665
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:00.840
and we hope this was one less still unknown for you.

666
00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:10.360
Bye bye bye Estoria's Unknown is produced by Carmen and Christina,

667
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:13.719
researched by Carmen and Christina, edited by Christina. You can

668
00:44:13.719 --> 00:44:16.840
find sources for every episode attias unknown dot com and

669
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:19.440
in our show notes. Creating the podcast has a lot

670
00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:21.320
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671
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672
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