Aug. 8, 2024

Martin Ramirez Sostre

Martin Ramirez Sostre

Martin Sostre was a pioneer for prison reform and prisoner rights. His fight against the injustices he faced as a prisoner helped secure rights for all prisoners, and continue to be an inspiration for those resisting the prison-industrial complex. ...

Spotify podcast player badge
Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
Amazon Music podcast player badge
Audible podcast player badge
PlayerFM podcast player badge
Podcast Addict podcast player badge
PocketCasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player iconApple Podcasts podcast player iconRSS Feed podcast player iconAmazon Music podcast player iconAudible podcast player iconPlayerFM podcast player iconPodcast Addict podcast player iconPocketCasts podcast player icon

Martin Sostre was a pioneer for prison reform and prisoner rights. His fight against the injustices he faced as a prisoner helped secure rights for all prisoners, and continue to be an inspiration for those resisting the prison-industrial complex.

If you have topic suggestions, feel free to email Historiasunknownpodcast@gmail.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/historiasunknown/

Sources:
https://www.instagram.com/p/C9asvdCS5HL/?igsh=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng%3D%3D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4Y0n1uvgLA&t=436s
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/14/507297469/how-one-inmate-changed-the-prison-system-from-the-inside
https://www.martinsostre.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Sostre

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:03.680
Hi everyone. This is Carmen and Christina and this is

2
00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:06.240
a Study Unknown, a podcast where we talk about Latin

3
00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:09.560
American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals with heavy topics

4
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:12.759
like criticism, corruption, and genocide. But more than that, it's

5
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:16.440
also about resistance, power and community. What are we what

6
00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:19.440
are we talking about today? Well, Christina, today we are

7
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:25.760
talking about resistance, oppression, all of it, actually all of it, okay, yeah,

8
00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:29.079
corruption and racism too, yeah yeah, okay, all of it,

9
00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:36.479
but power and community also, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay.

10
00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:42.119
So we're talking about a man who is Puerto Rican

11
00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:46.359
and black. His name Martin Ramirez Sastre. And then I

12
00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:50.000
kept seeing his name just Martin Martin Sostra. And I

13
00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:52.719
don't know, like if they if those are both Spanish

14
00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:55.320
last names, or it's Saucetray. I don't know. I just

15
00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:58.479
kept hearing Martin Saucetray. I mean, it could sounds like

16
00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:01.320
it'd be like that's what I thought. So I thought

17
00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:06.920
Martin Dramidrez Sostre. Yeah, you know whatever, Martin. Yeah. So

18
00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:13.719
Martin changed the prison system from the inside, from the inside. Yeah,

19
00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:17.120
from the inside, okay, And yeah, I mean I never

20
00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:18.840
heard of him before and it was just like super

21
00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:21.239
I don't want to say fun because it was also

22
00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:25.879
like it's not it's not a fun their struggle. Yeah,

23
00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:28.079
so it's not like all fun. But yeah, I mean

24
00:01:28.120 --> 00:01:33.920
it's just super interesting. Awe amazing No, awe awe is

25
00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:39.680
a word, yeah, like ahe aspiring Yeah that's how I felt.

26
00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:48.799
Aw I felt. Oh yeah, that's a full sentence, right. So.

27
00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:52.480
Martin Sustra was born on March twentieth, nineteen twenty three,

28
00:01:53.040 --> 00:02:00.280
in Harlem to Saturnino Sostre and Chrissinia Ramirez. I love

29
00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:03.480
their names. Yeah, there are black parricans. His father was

30
00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:07.040
a house painter and mechanic and his mother was a seamstress.

31
00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:10.879
So I couldn't find much else in between this and

32
00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:13.080
what I'm gonna say next. So Martin ended up dropping

33
00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:15.719
out of high school during the Great Depression to help

34
00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:20.159
support his family and growing up in Harlan Harlem from

35
00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:24.439
the nineteen thirties to the fifties, Martin often heard radical

36
00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:28.800
speeches about black nationalism and leftist movements being made in

37
00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:32.800
the street corners, and he also learned more about leftist

38
00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:37.879
politics from visiting the African National Memorial bookstore, where the

39
00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:41.080
owner often allowed customers with little to know money to

40
00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:43.719
read books for hours on end, which sounds super cool.

41
00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:48.520
Oh my god, that is community right there, right beautiful. Yeah.

42
00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:51.800
And then Martin also grew up hearing his father make

43
00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:56.000
passionate speeches about the vandals, as in the rich people

44
00:02:56.039 --> 00:03:03.000
stealing money from the working class, so opposite robin hood situation. Yeah,

45
00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:07.439
and he was talking about them, yes, and so he

46
00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:11.840
Martin would describe his father as a talking Communist, meaning

47
00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:15.439
he talked about it but never did anything. Oh so

48
00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:17.960
he said, he was like all talk, no game, right,

49
00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:20.599
But I mean his dad was also part of a

50
00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:24.680
member of the Communists affiliated Spanish speaking workers club called

51
00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:29.120
e le Klube. Meya, okay, that is more than talk,

52
00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:33.039
because just being a card member is very risky. Yeah.

53
00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:36.479
In nineteen forty two, Martin was drafted into the army,

54
00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.199
but he was later kicked out after getting to a fight,

55
00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:42.000
and he came back that same year, nineteen forty two,

56
00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:46.759
to Harlem with no skills or job prospects, and Martin

57
00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:51.199
described himself during this time as a street juda and hustler. Eventually,

58
00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:54.599
in nineteen fifty two, Martin was arrested for a possession

59
00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:57.960
of heroin and was sentenced to six to twelve years

60
00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:01.599
and he went to prison. So Martin became radicalized in prison.

61
00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:05.159
He explained, quote, on the streets you're hustling, you're looking

62
00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:07.439
over one shoulder to be sure you don't get busted,

63
00:04:07.719 --> 00:04:09.360
and over the other to be sure you don't get

64
00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.199
ripped off. Living in the streets by your wits makes

65
00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:14.919
you alert. In jail, I decided to put that sharpened

66
00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:18.040
awareness to another purpose. For the first time, I had

67
00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:21.959
a chance to think and began reading everything I could, history, philosophy,

68
00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:26.720
and law. And so he describes himself as a politicized prisoner,

69
00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:32.079
meaning a prisoner who has become politically aware while in prison,

70
00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:36.600
even though the original crime he committed was not political crime. Okay,

71
00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:41.680
this is a common story. It is, yeah, but I

72
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:46.279
had never heard that term politicized prisoner before. I only

73
00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:48.399
know about it because of the Young Lord's episode that

74
00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:51.519
we did where the person who founded the Young Lords.

75
00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:54.879
I think it's the same situation, or a very similar situation.

76
00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:56.519
So I feel like you didn't really talk about that.

77
00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:00.199
Now it was a long time ago. I remember, Well,

78
00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:02.120
maybe I just read about it, and then I didn't

79
00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:09.079
mention it. Yeah, So Martin began his political awareness journey

80
00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:13.360
by joining the Nation of Islam, being inspired by Malcolm X,

81
00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:16.519
who also became a Black Muslim after going to prison.

82
00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:20.720
So Martin studied Islam and he often borrowed the Koran

83
00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:23.480
from a fellow inmate, but the problem was that the

84
00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:26.319
only Koran in the prison belonged to that inmate. At

85
00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:29.399
the time, prison officials did not recognize the Nation of

86
00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:33.439
Islam as an authorized religion, and Martin ended up being

87
00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:36.920
in solitary confinement for demanding to be allowed visits from

88
00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:41.519
black Muslim ministers, just like prisoners of different faiths were allowed. Wow,

89
00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:44.879
I mean, I mean we're supposed to have what's it

90
00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:48.279
called the freedom of religion, right, I mean, you're supposed

91
00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:51.000
to have the right to exercise your religion. Oh, that's

92
00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:53.879
what it meant. It's not the same thing, but yeah,

93
00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:56.399
but do they both exist. I think they both exist,

94
00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:00.480
and they're different. The freedom of religion is yeah, right,

95
00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:03.639
maybe right, right of religion. It is supposed to be

96
00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:06.480
like governments are not supposed to impose your religion on you,

97
00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:08.879
and you're supposed to be able to practice whatever religion

98
00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:11.920
of your choosing. We might sound dumb. I think whatever,

99
00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:15.399
it doesn't matter. Well, I might cut all though. The

100
00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:20.360
point is that his religion was not respected as as

101
00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:22.639
a religion and he was not being allowed to practice

102
00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.879
it in prison, while others were yeah, I'm sorry, because

103
00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:29.120
what you're thinking is the freedom or the separation of

104
00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.800
church and state, and technically it would be the same

105
00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:35.199
freedom of religion and the right to exercise your own religion.

106
00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:38.920
I think technically like the one in the same, like

107
00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:41.920
I feel like a there, like a coin on his

108
00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:44.600
one signed, the other one right. I want his head

109
00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:48.560
and one his tells. Okay, well, someone will correct this,

110
00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.240
because you know people, as soon as you say something wrong,

111
00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:53.959
there's going to be a message like you're dumb, bitch,

112
00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:56.279
and I'm just kidding. As long as you're not mean,

113
00:06:56.319 --> 00:07:00.920
will welcome it. I love to learn. Yeah yeah, but

114
00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:03.439
if for me I mean about it, I'm not gonna cry.

115
00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:05.639
I'm just gonna be like, what the fuck I will.

116
00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:13.199
Despite the horrible conditions of solitary confinement, which included sleeping

117
00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:16.519
on a concrete floor with no bed or mattress, having

118
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:20.480
no light, no running water or toilet, Martin continued to

119
00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:23.319
fight for his rights, and he along with two other prisoners,

120
00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.079
sued the warden of the prison and in nineteen sixty one,

121
00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:31.120
Martin and the prisoners one. Oh wow. So I saw

122
00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:35.480
a few different lawsuits named. But in the article from NPR,

123
00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:38.759
which looked like it was from a from an episode

124
00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:44.240
of Code Switch, it said that it was the Piers

125
00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:51.199
the leavel and Saucetra v. Lavelle lawsuits that inmates were

126
00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:53.600
granted the right to practice their religion. But in the

127
00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:56.720
short documentary that I watched and said it was from

128
00:07:56.759 --> 00:07:59.680
the Saucetra v. McInnes's lawsuits. So I'm not tryingly sure

129
00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:02.079
which lawsuit it was, but it was one of those.

130
00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:06.879
There's multiple lawsuits. Yeah, he sued the prison and the

131
00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:10.160
board of what is the parole board more than once.

132
00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:13.879
Oh love it. So it was one of those. And

133
00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:17.800
what followed was more black Muslims bringing similar suits throughout

134
00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:20.800
the United States, and one of those lawsuits, Cooper v. Pate,

135
00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:23.839
made its way to the Supreme Court, and this resulted

136
00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:27.680
in the court ruling that inmates keep their constitutional rights

137
00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:31.439
in prison and could suit in federal courts over prison conditions.

138
00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:36.200
So isn't that amazing? So Martin's lawsuit paved the way

139
00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:42.759
for this monumental change in prisoner rights. Amazing. That's how

140
00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:44.759
I felt reading about this now And I was like,

141
00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:47.639
oh my god, how did I not know about this?

142
00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:49.720
May That's how I felt, Yeah, Like why am I

143
00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:52.039
barely learned about this? But where else do you learn?

144
00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:54.559
You know, unless you get involved in like prison abolition?

145
00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:56.000
You know. Yeah, I was gonna say, where do you

146
00:08:56.039 --> 00:09:00.600
learn about prisoner's rights? Like nowhere? Yeah? Less you seek

147
00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.720
it out yourself and you know, right, Yeah. In the

148
00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:06.679
documentary that I watched, I also saw that Martin sued

149
00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:10.759
the Prison Board of Attica State challenging that all the

150
00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:14.000
all white composition of the New York State Pearl Board

151
00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:19.600
was not right. It was like discriminatory. And it was

152
00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:22.200
this lawsuit and also the one I talked about before

153
00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.120
that really paved the way for that Cooper v. Paid

154
00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:31.840
that you know, made the Supreme Court was involved in. Awesome. Awesome.

155
00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:35.559
So after twelve years of imprisonment for drug possession, twelve

156
00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:40.200
years for drug possession, that's a long ass time, four

157
00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:44.360
of which were spent in solitary confinement, So an entire

158
00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:48.639
four years, like NonStop in solitary confinement. I don't think

159
00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:54.320
it was all NonStop, but that was like long periods. Okay,

160
00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:56.600
I don't remember what the longest that I saw was,

161
00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:00.440
but too long, too long, And honestly, solitary come finement

162
00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:04.759
is torture. It is a human rights violation. Like I'm sorry,

163
00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:07.240
Like you can yell at me or whatever. You know,

164
00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:09.840
if you're if you love prison and you love the

165
00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:13.519
prison industrial and if you're so yeah that's what it's

166
00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:15.759
gonna say, then you can yell at me. Okay, but whatever,

167
00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:19.480
just say that, just say it. Yeah, yeah, just say

168
00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:22.200
I love just say you're in their ass whatever, like okay,

169
00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:26.240
you know, but no, it is. It is super super

170
00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:29.840
fucked up. I remember being in Alcatras for let you

171
00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:31.919
go in the room for really. Yeah, I was gonna say,

172
00:10:32.759 --> 00:10:34.480
I was like, oh my god, I can't see my hands,

173
00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:37.480
like I yeah, I was scary. It's scary. Yeah. Yeah,

174
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:40.799
imagine being there for like six months, eight months exactly

175
00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:43.559
at a time. No, and so yeah. After the twelve

176
00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:48.120
years of imprisonment for drug possession four total years or

177
00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:51.679
in total, four years in solitary confinement, Martin was released

178
00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:55.720
from Attica in October nineteen sixty four. In March nineteen

179
00:10:55.759 --> 00:11:00.080
sixty five, Martin opened Buffalo's Buffalo, New York, Buffalo's own

180
00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:04.480
black bookstore while working at Bethlehem Steel. He saved up

181
00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:07.720
money just to do that because he was so inspired

182
00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:10.960
by the bookstore that he grew up. That's beautiful, right.

183
00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:14.519
So the bookstore was called the Afro Asian Bookstore, and

184
00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:17.919
it sold jazz records, African carvings, as well as black

185
00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:22.279
nationalists and anti war literature. Oh my god, literature, I

186
00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:25.279
can say that word. Yeah, good job, thank you. By

187
00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:28.840
the summer of nineteen sixty seven, Martin had established three

188
00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:32.480
bookstores in the black community of Buffalo, and the bookshops

189
00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:35.120
became a hub for young black people and white student

190
00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:38.759
leftists from the nearby state University of New York at Buffalo.

191
00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:42.200
But that only drew a negative attention from law enforcement,

192
00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:47.559
and of course right and Martin was repeatedly harassed by

193
00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:50.360
the police. They would often go inside the store and

194
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:54.200
question Martin about the quote communist trash she was selling.

195
00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:59.159
Around this time, Buffalo was experiencing a kind of social

196
00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:03.799
of people due to the community's response to ongoing police violence,

197
00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:08.000
and Martin's bookstore was being blamed by law enforcement for

198
00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:11.000
the uprisings instead of their own behavistead of looking inward

199
00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:15.320
at their own behavior and how that could possibly be

200
00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.759
causing these reactions in the community. Instead of doing that,

201
00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:23.480
they blamed Martin at his bookstore. They said, we investigated

202
00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:29.399
ourselves and it wasn't us Martin in the bookstore. Yeah.

203
00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:32.559
So yeah, in the eyes of the cops, Martin was

204
00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:35.960
the leader of the quote ghetto rebellion. That's on the newspaper,

205
00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:39.600
but it back then, ghetto rebellion, a rebellion. Yeah, sign

206
00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:43.720
me up. I'd like to go to that. Yeah, I'd

207
00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:47.840
like to be on the ghetto side. Please team ghetto.

208
00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.600
I'll stop, yeah, please stop. Not just kidding, not kidding

209
00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:57.679
that summer riots, or uprisings as we call them, they

210
00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:00.960
happened not only in Buffalo, but in other similar cities

211
00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:05.480
tie unemployment, police violence, and racial discrimination. What year is

212
00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:07.960
this This was in? Oh my god? What year did

213
00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:10.879
I say? Oh, nineteen sixty five, this was in March? Yes,

214
00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:14.879
of course, okay, makes sense the time we're in Yeah,

215
00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:19.080
that there would be similar upright, I'm sorry, oh, sorry

216
00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:20.519
to cut you off. I feel like my voice sounds

217
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:24.559
weird because I was traveling all day I went too

218
00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:28.200
and back from Riverside, and I didn't drink any water,

219
00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:30.600
or at least only like a few SIPs of water,

220
00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:33.639
because I didn't want to stop to pee all the time, right, right,

221
00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:37.360
of course. I didn't do this out of my own desire.

222
00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:45.519
It was a work uplidation, Yeah, contractually forced, Yes, I was. Yeah.

223
00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:47.519
So I feel like my voice sounds weird because of that.

224
00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:52.200
It sounds it feels like when we came back from Denver. Okay. Yeah,

225
00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:54.480
there's a little more vocal for I going on, but

226
00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:58.159
that's okay. And in Buffalo, over the course of several days,

227
00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.360
black teens and young men grew to tired of discriminatory

228
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.159
treatment that they were receiving from the police, and so

229
00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.320
they responded the only reasonable way, you know, anyone would

230
00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:10.919
with anger, sitting fires, turning cars over, breaking into stores

231
00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:14.639
enough of course, yeah, the usual. Yeah. And so because

232
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:17.960
of all of this, most stores were closing early, except

233
00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.320
the Afro Asian Bookshop. Because Martin took this opportunity to

234
00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:25.279
further educate the community, and he would read passages from

235
00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:30.080
books and pamphlets out to large crowds during the uprisings. Woww,

236
00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:32.879
I love that right, But that's why he was being

237
00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:36.600
blamed for it. Yeah. I mean he's not causing them,

238
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:41.320
he's just teaching during yes, yeah, yeah yeah. And a

239
00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:45.480
letter about this time, Martin wrote, needless to say, I

240
00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:49.200
made political hay in denouncing the police brutality going on

241
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:53.360
outside to large crowds in the store with interest simulated,

242
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.879
I would make several cells and create several new freedom

243
00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:02.960
fighters with no actual cause. Lee suspected that molotov cocktails

244
00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.039
were being made in the bookstores basement and that Martin

245
00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:10.120
was leading people to wreck havoc. So on the night

246
00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:14.240
of July fourteenth, nineteen sixty seven, they stormed the store

247
00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:17.159
and they arrested Martin as well as one of his

248
00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:20.200
staff members. And what charges I'll tell you right now.

249
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:23.240
And they also arrested one of his staff who worked

250
00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:28.879
the counter, Gerald Deane Robinson. So I didn't see Jerdan's charges,

251
00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:32.799
but Martin was charged with the cell of narcotics, riot, arson,

252
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:37.080
and assault narcotics. Yeah, I'll tell you about that. Was

253
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:41.000
he selling narcotics? No he wasn't. They planted I was like,

254
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.399
I don't, doesn't song like he was? Yeah, they planted it. Okay, Okay,

255
00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:51.279
that is what I was suspecting. Course, of course, expect

256
00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:57.799
of course. Yeah. So law enforcement reported finding molotov cocktail

257
00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:00.720
ingredients in the basement of the bookstore, but this was

258
00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:03.039
never brought up in court because the cops could never

259
00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:06.879
prove that, nor could prove that Martin was inciting the

260
00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:10.799
riots because he was not. Eventually, the riot and arson

261
00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:14.519
charges were dropped, but the cell of narcotic charges remained

262
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:20.440
due to a key witness, Ardo Williams, reportedly stating he

263
00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:23.840
bought fifteen dollars worth the worth of heroin from Martin.

264
00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:27.679
Martin denied the charges, saying he was just holding onto

265
00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:30.840
the money as he had done similar times for Arto

266
00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.039
in the past, like holding stuff for him, like he

267
00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.639
held like a suit for him, like just different stuff,

268
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.360
and that he was set up by the police. Martin

269
00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:42.240
never really faced a fair court process. First, his bill

270
00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:47.120
was set really high at fifty thousand because he supposedly

271
00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:50.720
made thousands a week from selling drugs. In minds you,

272
00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:53.000
there was no evidence that he was really selling drugs,

273
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:56.639
so right, all they had was this line witness. Yet

274
00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:59.960
the fifteen dollars and if it's like how many transactions,

275
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:02.360
what do you have to be doing if if they're

276
00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:05.480
all fifteen dollars transactions to lead up to what thousands?

277
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:10.440
And yeah in a week? Yeah that's no, yeah at

278
00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:15.680
least like come on, right, then, before Martin was indicted,

279
00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:21.200
Frank philly Chetta, assuming this is pronounced the Buffalo Chetta. Yeah,

280
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.799
so yeah, before Martin was indicted, Frank philly Chetta, the

281
00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:28.759
Buffalo Commissioner of Police, went to Congress to testify before

282
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:32.640
a congressional committee about the riots from that summer, and

283
00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.440
he talked about a quote Martin X who ran a

284
00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:39.519
bookstore where he taught young black men to make Molotov

285
00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:42.839
cocktails and told them to loot and start fires. And

286
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:46.920
then this made the front news in Buffalo and basically

287
00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:52.440
taining anyone who would then become part of the grand jury,

288
00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:58.200
which is like for the hearing for the illegal right, it's like, uh,

289
00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:02.200
what is the supposed to dismiss there by their preconceived

290
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:06.200
notions of something, and that's why the people get sequestered

291
00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:11.359
in cases. Yeah, so yeah, basically anyone who were at

292
00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.640
the front more than news in Buffalo who would be

293
00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:18.319
selected as the jury for this grand jury, right, they

294
00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:21.920
already had this view of him, and the grand jury

295
00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.119
is different than like a typical criminal court hearing, and

296
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.039
the purpose of the grand jury hearing was they were

297
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:31.200
supposed to meet to consider the charges against Martin and

298
00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:35.000
whether to bring those charges to court, if that makes sense. Yeah, okay,

299
00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:37.079
So anyway, of course they were going to because they

300
00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:39.359
already heard all this stuff about the supposed that Martin X,

301
00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:43.400
when Martin never went by Martin X and he never

302
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.799
did any I have to say, that's a cool name. Well,

303
00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:50.720
they're copying from you know, MACMX, Malcolm X. You like,

304
00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:53.160
if my name was Martin at that time, I probably

305
00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:56.599
would have started calling myself that too, And I guess

306
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:01.200
mart Okay, I'm kidding that, and I'm just kidding anyway.

307
00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.160
You know what, though, I'm also wondering if this Martinx

308
00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:06.440
even existed or if they just completely made it up

309
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:09.839
just because they heard Malcolm X. Okay. This Frank phill

310
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:15.920
Eachattar person was describing Martin to the Congressional Committee, and

311
00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:22.240
he gave Martinus moniker of Martin X, and he was

312
00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:25.599
describing Martin as this person who was encouraging the young

313
00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:29.319
black men to uh loot, to start fires, and to

314
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:31.720
teaching them how to make moll tough cockages when he

315
00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.519
had no evidence of this, right, and so he created

316
00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:37.279
write this nickname for him, which then you know, the

317
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.519
news love a nickname and then created this like you know,

318
00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:47.079
bias against him in Buffalo. Okay because of this, Understandremony

319
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:50.160
misunderstood this as that was very clear to me at

320
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.640
a separate hearing, I know, no, no, and he said, wow,

321
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:56.000
there's a guy named Martin X and he's doing this

322
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:58.680
and they and there was a separate Martin X. There

323
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:04.599
is no Martin X that I made up monica for him. Okay,

324
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.400
thank you. I needed that. So, yeah, you're welcome. I'm

325
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.200
glad that you said that. And I was like, what

326
00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:14.519
what they We're confused too, it could be confusing. Yeah,

327
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.680
it couldn't just ring me also yes, so yeah, I

328
00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.920
mean his unfair treatment during the criminal proceedings continued, so

329
00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:25.279
he was brought into court and chains, and he ended

330
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:29.519
up being ordered bound and gagged by the judge after

331
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:33.400
Martin denounced the judge as a racial bigot in judicial robes.

332
00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:38.599
So like he had to wear like a gag. That's insane, right,

333
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:42.599
that's so humanizing, Yeah, m hm, And like it's not

334
00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:45.680
it's not wrong to tell like you should be able to,

335
00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:48.240
you know, say, if someone's being racist, you should be

336
00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:51.039
able to call them out right, and so no matter

337
00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:56.519
who they are writing a judge. So Martin represented himself,

338
00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.240
but he had no time to prepare for trial because

339
00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:01.720
when he was a hearing for what he thought was

340
00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:06.160
a request for a reduction in Bell, so emotion hearing

341
00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.920
requesting a reduction in Bell. The judge denied their request

342
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:14.000
and then immediately started the trial, which seems hell, not right.

343
00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.680
It seems that seems illegal. Yeah, what is that thing

344
00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:22.359
where you have a right to like a full process, right,

345
00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:25.559
This seems like they're skipping steps right. And then an

346
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.799
all white jury found him guilty and the judge sentenced

347
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:33.599
Martin to thirty to forty one years in prison, which

348
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:37.559
was disproportionate to the crime. Wow, it all gets worse.

349
00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:43.039
The same judge, judge Frederick Marshall, later sentenced another black

350
00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:46.119
man to a five to fifteen year sentence were stabbing

351
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:50.359
and killing his wife. And mind you, the charges that

352
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.480
were actually brought to court it was the selling the drugs.

353
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:58.400
And I think there was one more, oh know that

354
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.519
was it the sell of narcotics. Yeah, that was it.

355
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:03.759
That was the only charge. So thirty to forty one

356
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:10.200
years for a supposed or a leged fifteen dollars dollar yeah,

357
00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:16.039
heroin Cell's. And then the same judge turned around and

358
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:20.720
sentenced another black man for killing his wife five to

359
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:25.920
fifteen years, five to fifteen years. Yeah. So I mean

360
00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:30.440
it was clear that, like the legal and like law enforcement,

361
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:33.799
there's a clear bias going on here. Yeah. They already

362
00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:37.319
didn't like Martin, and in the years that followed, Martin

363
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:40.640
was put in solitary confinement for various reasons, and he

364
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.759
was transferred to different prisons as punishment too. So I

365
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.839
wasn't super clear on timelines because I saw different timelines

366
00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:48.920
from the documentary and then the article that I read.

367
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.079
So in March or June nineteen sixty eight, Martin was

368
00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:56.279
sent to solitary confinement after trying to mail a letter

369
00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:59.880
to his attorney which included a motion for a change

370
00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.839
venue for Geraldine, the woman you know he worked with,

371
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:05.279
who was also arrested. Oh my god, look at him

372
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:09.200
trying to sign up for his people, even behind ours. Yeah.

373
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.119
But to the warden, this was Martin practicing law without

374
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:15.640
a license, and he sent Martin to solitary. In total,

375
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:20.480
Martin spent six years in solitary for things like starting

376
00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:24.559
a labor union at the prison license plate shop, refusing

377
00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:27.079
to shave his beard, and refusing to submit to a

378
00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.880
rectal exam because he and of course he viewed this

379
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:35.079
as a form of dehumanization, right, which very much is. Yes.

380
00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:38.960
And then along with solitary confinement, Martin was often beaten

381
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:41.640
by the prison guards, and after one of those beatings,

382
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.759
Martin ended up being charged with assaulting the guards and

383
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.000
four more years were added to a sentence. And that

384
00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:51.880
is a prime example of why the prison system is

385
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.440
so I mean, amo among many examples, but so corrupt

386
00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:58.640
because once you're in there, they could just keep adding

387
00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:00.720
random things that are not even and like, oh you

388
00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.759
did this, more charges, more charges. So yeah, I'm not

389
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:08.519
at all surprised by this. But still, of course it's

390
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:14.359
infuriating because yeah, it's a story that has gone happened

391
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.480
too many times. Yeah, And when Martin was offered an

392
00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.920
opportunity to reduce his solitary time by participating in group therapy,

393
00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:27.559
he refused because this group quote group therapy was facilitated

394
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.279
by the prison guards, who only received one week of training,

395
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.440
So it's not even real, Like, why would you participate? Yeah,

396
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.440
besides them having no actual training in therapy, how would

397
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:42.000
a prisoner ever feel comfortable and ever build rapport and

398
00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:46.799
trust with the prison guard Like that's ridiculous. Yeah. In fact,

399
00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:50.400
if anything, they could just use whatever against the mission

400
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:53.480
they obtained their Yeah, yeah, huh. Yeah, And Martin continued

401
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:56.799
to fight his conviction, filing motion after motion to novel

402
00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:00.400
three years after the trial. Ardo, the key and is,

403
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:04.119
who had a substance dependency issue and reported buying heroin

404
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.160
from Martin, was in drug rehab and then he recounted

405
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:10.880
his testimony. Ardo admitted in an affidavit that a detective

406
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:13.279
asked him if Martin sold him drugs when he was

407
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.440
in jail, and he said yes, because he wanted to

408
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.960
get out of jail. So Ardo was in jail, he

409
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:21.880
was dependent on drugs. In other words, people call this

410
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:26.279
an addiction, right, a drug addict, But I don't know,

411
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:29.839
it's we're kind of moving away from trumps like that, right, right,

412
00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:35.240
And you're the pioneer of change, so exactly, yes, we'll

413
00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:41.000
use these words. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, he was dependent

414
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:46.720
on substances. He was in jail. For drugs, and a

415
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:50.440
police officer approached him and said, hey, is Martin selling drugs?

416
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:54.440
And then he's like, yes, get me out of jail now. Yeah,

417
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:57.839
what kind of you know invisation? Is that? No, they

418
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:02.200
were looking for the leading question. Yes, yeah, yeah, so

419
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:06.480
he admitted. Ardo admitted that the police gave him fifteen

420
00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:08.880
dollars and marked bills so then they would know that

421
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.799
this was spright the fifteen dollars that was used for

422
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:16.000
that transaction. So they gave Ardo fifteen dollars and marked

423
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:19.720
bills to buy drugs from Martin. He also admitted that

424
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:23.319
the heroine he supposedly bought from Martin was already in

425
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:25.599
his pocket from earlier that day when he bought it

426
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:29.200
for himself earlier that day from someone else. Right. And

427
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:31.720
the only thing, which is why Martin was saying like

428
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:34.400
I was only holding this money for him, is because

429
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:37.960
that's all that he asked him to do, because he

430
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:42.400
didn't he'd buy drugs from him, right, he already had them. Yeah,

431
00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:45.039
this was brought to the court and everything, but a

432
00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.559
federal judge did not find Ardo credible and he denied

433
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:51.640
Martin a new trial. I feel like that goes both ways.

434
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:53.680
If he was incredible, to believe him, Now, why would

435
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:56.319
he be why would he have been the place? Yeah, Like,

436
00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:58.519
how can you say that? They're just like picking and

437
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:03.240
choosing shit? And that is the judicial and prison system

438
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:08.240
in the United States exactly. Another witness testimony was also

439
00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:12.119
found to be questionable. So a photographer for the Buffalo

440
00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:15.720
Police reported viewing the exchange of money and drugs between

441
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:19.599
Martin and Ardo from eighty feet away from the upstairs

442
00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:24.960
building in front of the bookstore. So across there, okay, upstairs, upstairs, Yeah,

443
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:29.079
eighty seed away. He saw this exchange. Does bitch better

444
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:34.680
have had binoculars? And when asked if he took pictures

445
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:37.559
of this exchange, the photographer said he forgot to load

446
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:43.400
his camera. How convenient, right, So Martin did not get

447
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:46.359
another chance at a new trial until a prisoner advocate

448
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.039
cross paths with the first black woman appointed as a

449
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:53.359
federal judge. And this visionary judge was US District Court

450
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.960
Judge Constance Baker Motley, and she rose in the legal

451
00:27:57.039 --> 00:27:59.640
ranks during the Civil Rights movement as a lawyer for

452
00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:03.599
the AACP. And she was the first black woman to

453
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:06.960
argue before the Supreme Court in Brown v Board of Education.

454
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:09.400
Oh my god, Yeah, this isn't telling you like I

455
00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:11.680
love learning about this, Like this was like such a

456
00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:14.400
fun thing to research for me. I love when things

457
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:19.559
connect to other things, yes, like other historical you know, time,

458
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:23.480
historical multiverse. Yes, yes, And you know that we come

459
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:26.920
across that so much, we really do. And I love

460
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:31.640
it every single time. Everything is connected, everything everywhere, all

461
00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:33.559
that once. Oh my god, So I don't watch that.

462
00:28:35.079 --> 00:28:40.000
What I watched that? Oh my god. It's my favorite

463
00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:43.640
movie ever done. It changed my life. In July nineteen

464
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:48.279
sixty nine, Judge Baker Motley ordered Martin to be immediately

465
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:51.920
released from solitary confinement, and the following year she held

466
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.480
a trial from Martin in Saucetree v. Rockefeller, and she

467
00:28:55.519 --> 00:28:59.079
made a ruling about the conditions of Martin's solitary confinement,

468
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:03.720
a ruling in Martin's favor. Judge Baker Motley ruled that

469
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:07.400
Martin was punished because of his legal and political activities

470
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.519
and beliefs, and not because of any infractions, which, of course,

471
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:17.200
and she further ruled that Martin's confinement was physically harsh,

472
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:20.880
destructive of morale, dehumanizing in the sense that it is

473
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:24.920
needlessly degrading and dangerous to the maintenance of sanity and

474
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:27.799
should not exceed fifteen days. So she made a ruling

475
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:32.599
that solitary confinement should not exceed fifteen days. And that's

476
00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:36.720
still like held today. Not really, I mean it's supposed

477
00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:40.160
to be followed in some places. Yeah, but yeah, I

478
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:44.799
mean it's the precedent, right. This ruling paved the way

479
00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:48.599
for the continued fight against solitary confinement, and there's a

480
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:50.240
lot more. And that's when I read about that it's

481
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:52.559
still not really followed in some places, that the people

482
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:56.079
are still fighting for this to be followed, okay, and

483
00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:00.759
that you know, fight against solitary confinement. The larger fight

484
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:07.000
for either prison reform or abolition continues, right. The judge

485
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:11.359
also awarded Martin compensatory damages for each day he was

486
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:16.920
in solitary and punitive damages. So like I forgot and

487
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.599
write down the amount of money. But of course, no

488
00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:22.799
amount of money, you know, can make up for everything. Yeah, however,

489
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:27.240
hopefully it helps a little bit. Yeah. The prison guards

490
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:30.559
responded to Martin's victory by trying to pit the white

491
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.400
prisoners against the black ones and trying to incite a

492
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:37.079
race riot. Oh my god. But it didn't work. It

493
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:40.319
didn't work because the white prisoners acknowledge that Martin's victory

494
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:44.160
was also their victory because they were also not going

495
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:47.599
to be sent to solitary for no reason and for

496
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:50.559
more than fifteen days at a time. So they were like, nah, no,

497
00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:55.920
we're good. Yeah, we're all winning today. This also led

498
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:59.799
to further uprisings from prisoners, and so I just wanted

499
00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:02.720
to briefly talk about one of them that I read about. So, yeah,

500
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.039
the following year after this ruling, over one hundred, no

501
00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:08.960
a thousand, over a thousand prisoners in Attica. I was

502
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.200
gonna say, before you even said, Aine, is it the

503
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:14.599
Attica prison uprising? Yes, it is. Yeah, they were inspired

504
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.319
by Martin. I didn't know this. I have, I've hadn't

505
00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:23.119
read about and listened to episodes about the Attica Uprising,

506
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:25.960
but I had no idea that it's got connected to

507
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:32.160
this black Latino man. Like, yes, amazing, Brian, Right, here's

508
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:38.319
another historical multiverse thing going on. Yes, yes, so yeah, right.

509
00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:42.599
The prisoners in Attica demanded rights and better conditions, things

510
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:46.079
like better medical treatment, the right to read political newspapers,

511
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:51.000
to form labor unions, to have regular showers, basic rights. Yeah. Well,

512
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:52.920
and another thing, to have more than one a bar

513
00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:56.599
of soap and toilet paper a month, a month, a month. Yeah,

514
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:00.079
imagine only being allotted one toilet paper a month. And

515
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:03.119
yeah if for those that don't know, the Attica prison

516
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:06.359
uprising turned it deadly when the governor Rockefeller sent in

517
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:11.920
state troopers to quash it. Right. Yeah. So then finally,

518
00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:14.920
in nineteen seventy five, after Martin was moved to a

519
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:18.440
different prison due to his life being in danger because

520
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:22.160
the violence from the prison guards, a nationwide campaign to

521
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:26.440
free Martin was started by Daniel Berrigan, an activist priest.

522
00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:32.279
We love an activist priest. Yes, And I didn't write

523
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:34.480
down the new prison he was sent to, but I

524
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:37.160
guess it was an easier location for activists to visit,

525
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:42.279
and so it led this movement to gain more traction

526
00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:45.839
and stuff like that, And despite opposition from law enforcement

527
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:52.400
and prosecutors and Buffalo, the campaign gained enough traction that

528
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:56.119
on Christmas Eve of that year, nineteen seventy five, New

529
00:32:56.200 --> 00:33:01.279
York Governor Hugh Carey granted Martin executive clemency so he

530
00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:06.359
was free. He was free. Oh, amazing, truly amazing. In total,

531
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:09.400
Martin had spent about twenty years in prison, twenty years

532
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:13.240
of his life in prison with both of the sentences right,

533
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:17.200
and Martin worried that he wouldn't be able to acclimate

534
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:22.240
to civilian life after two decades of institutionalization and imprisonment,

535
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:27.799
and he said the following prison is a close society

536
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:30.640
with forty foot walls and the public can't see in.

537
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:35.359
I consider the outside only a minimum security and inside

538
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.079
prison a sort of maximum security. So in a sense

539
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:41.039
he kind of felt safer inside. And I feel like

540
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:46.240
that's such a also common sentiment between those that have

541
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:50.680
been in prison. Yeah, such a great visualization of this

542
00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:54.599
and also such a sad, sad, sad story. But when

543
00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:59.599
they see us the show on Netflix, oh my god, yes,

544
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.119
oh god, I cannot ever rewatch that one time was enough?

545
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:09.239
The thing amazing. I mean, there's the reason that Jerome won, right,

546
00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:12.679
what was it like an oscar whatever? Like actors win, right,

547
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:14.800
because I am I'm sorry, I don't ever won't remember

548
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:18.760
because he was amazing in the show. But it follows

549
00:34:18.760 --> 00:34:22.000
the case of the Central Park teenagers five, yeah, that

550
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:24.840
were accused of you know, raping and killing a woman.

551
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:29.360
And it was uh, oh, you know part Ada using

552
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:33.639
them for their imprisonments and accusing them Trump. Yes, and

553
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:36.920
this is they didn't do this at all. No complete

554
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:38.800
but yeah, in the show, you can see that they

555
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:40.840
get out and a lot of them end up back

556
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:43.239
in for different things because it's they were in for

557
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:46.639
so long. How do you when you come out the

558
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.400
system though, everything has again set up against you. Yeah. Two,

559
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:53.079
and it's set up for you to fail again basically,

560
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:55.880
and that's on purpose because the United States needs the

561
00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:59.760
free labor so right. So in February nineteen seventy six,

562
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:02.480
it took time for the clemency to be processed. I'm

563
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:05.320
not really sure. Martin finally walked out of prison and

564
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.000
became a free man. In a press conference at the

565
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:11.239
UN he held the day after his release, Martin said

566
00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:14.559
the following, I know it's fashionable to say I'm not bitter.

567
00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:18.800
Of course I am, of course, and no, absolutely, no

568
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:22.239
one can blame him for that, right, and the creation shouldn't. Right,

569
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:25.119
And the quote goes on, I lost the nine years

570
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:28.320
of my life. I'm a human being, I'm bitter. This

571
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.440
sort of thing goes on in a so called humane society.

572
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:34.159
And so yeah, this last sentence was nine years, and

573
00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:36.360
the one before that was I think of almost ten,

574
00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:40.559
so right, for a total of almost twenty. So Martin

575
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:43.840
continued his activism after being released, and he organized with

576
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:47.440
fellow tenants against bad landlords, and he also set up

577
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:51.119
daycares and after school programs in his community. That's beautiful,

578
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:55.440
Oh my god. Yeah. Describing his work as a housing

579
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:58.960
tenant advocate, Martin said, the battlefield has changed from the

580
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:01.599
dungeon to the street, but the repression is the same.

581
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:04.840
Is that cool? So why is god? Yeah? And you

582
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:06.760
know what, like, I don't know, I'm going to send

583
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:09.320
pictures of him and post them, but he just looks cool.

584
00:36:11.079 --> 00:36:14.920
Despite his activism, Martin constantly worried that his freedom would

585
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.599
be taken from him at any second, and that he

586
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:20.000
would be sent back to prison for any reason. And

587
00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:22.880
this was a valid concern because some conditions of his

588
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:28.400
parole were vague and just completely up to interpretation. For example,

589
00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:32.960
one condition of his parole stated that Martin's behavior would

590
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:35.880
not be a menace to society. What kind of shit

591
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:40.000
is that? I know who defines what that means? And

592
00:36:40.039 --> 00:36:44.760
so yeah, Martin worried that expressing criticism of the government

593
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:47.480
and the prison system could be interpreted as the behavior

594
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:52.000
that's menacing to society. Mm hmm. And then other terms

595
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.159
of his parole included him not being able to marry,

596
00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:58.320
to buy a car, or to go his job without

597
00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:05.039
obtaining permission of his parole officer. So talk about dehumanizing. Wow.

598
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:08.719
So yeah, Martin continued his activism, but sometimes it was

599
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:11.960
difficult for him to work with others and he preferred

600
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.639
and was used to doing things alone, especially because all

601
00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:18.480
the time he spent in solitary confinement. Right. Martin met

602
00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:21.400
his wife, Philz through her own prison reform work, and

603
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:24.239
the pair went on to have two sons, Mark and Vinnie.

604
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:27.639
At one point there were talks with James Earl Jones

605
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:30.519
of a TV movie being made of Martin's life, but

606
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:34.639
that fell through when Martin and James said no because

607
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:37.199
they felt like the writers were watering down the story

608
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:41.960
too much. And along with organizing and renters, Martin also

609
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:45.440
formed a block association. So this is when renters from

610
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:49.119
different buildings on the same block formed together, like kind

611
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:52.280
of like a you know, union or whatever. Yeah, and

612
00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:55.159
he also bought abandoned buildings with a friend in New

613
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:58.960
Jersey and taught teens how to do construction. Oh my god,

614
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:04.039
who has time and I don't believe it right Through

615
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:06.280
the same program, he also started a daycare anters to

616
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:08.159
a program, and I think that's the one I mentioned earlier.

617
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:12.679
It was program. In nineteen eighty four, Martin was once

618
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:15.719
again thrown into the clause of the criminal justice system

619
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:19.079
when he shot a man in self defense. So what

620
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.760
happened was that Martin was evicting a tenant from a

621
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:26.199
building he was managing when the man and his friend,

622
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:29.159
who had a gun, threatened him. So the man and

623
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:33.280
the man's friend threatened Martin with the gun, and Martin

624
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:36.320
then grabbed a gun and it went off, shooting the tenant,

625
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:40.400
who suffered from a superficial neck wound. So Martin was

626
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:43.000
charged with attempted murder, and in fear that he would

627
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:44.760
be killed in prison, that he would be sent back

628
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:47.960
and killed in prison due to his prison reform advocacy work,

629
00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:50.719
he fled New York. He didn't feel like he would

630
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:53.760
get a fair trial and all that, so there's no way,

631
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:58.159
so he fled, basically becoming a fugitive. Martin hid in Florida,

632
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:01.199
while his wife, Liz was left care for their sons alone,

633
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:06.199
and Liz and the boys often visited Martin, and one

634
00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:08.519
time they even went to Disney World while he was

635
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:16.280
technically a fugitive. Oh god, honestly love that for them. Yeah,

636
00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:18.440
so two years went by like this, So she would

637
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.599
sneak out and she would sneak out of their apartment

638
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:23.960
with like the kids like in hiding bags, Like they

639
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:26.079
would hide themselves to sneak out to visit him because

640
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.800
they were afraid that the cops are following them, which

641
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:32.400
could be true. Yeah. So yeah, two years went by

642
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:37.480
and then Martin visited New York and he was caught

643
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:44.480
visiting one of his favorite places, a law library. But yeah,

644
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:47.920
I mean at trial, he represented himself and he was acquitted.

645
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:54.000
Oh my god, that's amazing. Yeah. So Martin lived until

646
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:56.760
the age of ninety two, when his health had been

647
00:39:56.840 --> 00:40:00.960
declining for a few years after suffering from a series

648
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:04.199
of strokes. In the later years of his life, he

649
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:07.920
spoke less about his time in prison, although his sons

650
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:10.719
said that he was always talking about politics and current events.

651
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:14.400
And of course, right, I mean, like I feel like

652
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:16.760
you never really let that go if that's how you

653
00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:21.039
you know, grew up live and yeah, lived basically. Yeah.

654
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:25.440
Martin even left any letters from journalists and academics unopened

655
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:28.079
in a pile because he felt like that part of

656
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:30.239
his life was in the past. But he always responded

657
00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:33.679
to inmates that he knew in prison. Oh and he

658
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:38.480
passed away on August twelfth, twenty fifteen, with no media attention.

659
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:42.039
But anyone who's an anti prison in industrial complex, you know,

660
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:47.599
person should know his name. Yeah. I saw this quote

661
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:49.519
from the article that I read that I want to share,

662
00:40:49.719 --> 00:40:53.280
and it's from a historian. No single figure played a

663
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:56.880
greater role in securing illegal rights for prisoners in the

664
00:40:56.920 --> 00:41:02.119
history of US prisons than Martin sastry Man. That's so true.

665
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:06.360
So I just yeah, wow, Yeah, it was truly in

666
00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:08.800
awe of Martin when I was reading, seriously, like he

667
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.559
just never stopped working. Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm amazed because

668
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:16.960
not only obviously the prison you know, reformed stuff that

669
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:19.599
he did, like you know, the Salagia confinements, that enough

670
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:26.719
for himself, but daycares renters right like a ninety two.

671
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:29.800
That's that's a lot of long, long life. So I'm

672
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:33.079
just glad that he after he was able to after

673
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.920
he was released from prison. He lived a long life. Yeah,

674
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:42.639
long fulfilling life. Seriously. The Martin Sastry Institute still maintains

675
00:41:42.679 --> 00:41:45.599
a website that includes an archive of his writings and

676
00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:48.480
pictures and films about him. So and that'll be linked

677
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:52.360
in the sources. So cool website to check out. Cool

678
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:57.639
and Yeah that's Martin Sastry, Martin Ramirez Saustry. Wow, seriously,

679
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:01.199
thank you for sharing his story because I did not

680
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:03.960
know about him. Yeah. No, and huge shout out to

681
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:08.119
I follow working class history. I think it is. Oh yes,

682
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:12.320
I linked included the link in those sources. Okay, people

683
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:14.400
can see that, But that's how I found out about him.

684
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:18.960
That's a great wealth of information there too. Yeah. Wow. Yeah,

685
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:21.960
I'm just I'm just amazed that there's just, you know,

686
00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:24.840
people out here that had did so much and like

687
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:27.480
I had no idea about them. Yeah, that's why we

688
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:35.079
have this podcast so exactly exactly. Oh man. Also, I

689
00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:38.480
know we don't really do recommendations here, but I did

690
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:42.239
just read, or I finished recently, the Killers of the

691
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:47.880
Flower Moon book and it was amazing. I accidentally, actually

692
00:42:48.039 --> 00:42:51.000
not accidentally, but my library apparently only has the version

693
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:57.639
that's adopted for young readers. I didn't realize this. I didn't.

694
00:42:57.679 --> 00:42:59.639
That's fine, I didn't. It's a sense that it was

695
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:03.480
for younger readers. When I was reading it, it was

696
00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:06.159
like a regular book, but I don't know. It comes

697
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:10.639
with a glossary and like an index of like all

698
00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:13.480
the people. So I'm like, okay, maybe that's why I

699
00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:17.519
didn't have trouble, Like I didn't need those things. But

700
00:43:17.559 --> 00:43:19.559
I don't know if it's maybe it's shorter and includes

701
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:23.480
those or what. Maybe maybe it's like an abridge. Yeah,

702
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:26.280
so I'm gonna look for the regular version. But it

703
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:30.599
was still good, honestly, No, I'm sure, And it makes

704
00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:32.440
me want to watch the movie. But it's only on

705
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:37.519
Apple TV, so that suns. Yeah, but you know a

706
00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:41.320
lot of because basically this is a true true crime book.

707
00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:44.920
But a lot of true crime books the reason I

708
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:48.320
sometimes don't like reading them is because they're too pro

709
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:52.840
I guess, like hop yes, which is the case with

710
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:56.280
a lot of even like yeah, any type of true

711
00:43:56.280 --> 00:44:01.639
crime media, right right, But this book focused on the

712
00:44:02.599 --> 00:44:07.079
like historical injustice against indigenous people, the bias that the

713
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:12.280
law enforcement and judicial system had and it's it's so

714
00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:15.280
much worse than I thought, like, and I remember, actually

715
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:19.159
I listened to an episode about this, The Killers of

716
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:22.280
the Flower Moon from I think I told you about

717
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:24.400
the podcast before, but I want to relisten now that

718
00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:26.480
I read the book and have a clear understanding of

719
00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:31.280
who's who. But I listened to hold on, let me

720
00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:34.280
look for it. Yeah, because I don't remember having this

721
00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:37.719
conversation where you told me about something like this, a

722
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:43.960
podcast about indigenous like folklore, myth scary stories. It is

723
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:51.360
nightmares of the Americas, that colon thing indigenous tells. Okay,

724
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:53.920
I don't remember this, you know. Well. Yeah, so I

725
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:56.320
listened to a few I've and I'm like kind of

726
00:44:56.360 --> 00:45:01.719
behind on podcast, so I have I listened in a while.

727
00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:05.800
But yeah, so they have one, two, three, four parter

728
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:10.599
on this, so I'm gonna re listen to those now

729
00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:13.480
that I know a little bit more. Yes, yes, I'll

730
00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:16.039
have to check that out. They also had an episode

731
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:18.400
on they do some Latin American because you know, it's

732
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:20.599
kind of a lot of the Latin American one comes

733
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:23.960
from Latin American indigenous indigenous people. Yeah, and they had

734
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:27.199
an episode on the other was more those two. Okay, okay,

735
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:29.880
I'll have to check this out. I want to relisten

736
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:31.800
to those because they, you know, have their four partner.

737
00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:35.039
And then I'm going to look for the regular version

738
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:38.679
of the book someday when I visit my friend again

739
00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:42.079
who has Apple TV. I'm gonna watch it with her.

740
00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:46.079
And I mean the movie, you know, award winning but

741
00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:51.800
the Gladstone. Yeah, like i'd watch it for her alone,

742
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:54.320
for the women in the movie. Did you watch Under

743
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:57.239
the Bridge? Yeah? No, I still need to. I forgot

744
00:45:57.280 --> 00:45:59.239
what it was called. And then I kept forgetting to

745
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:03.639
ask she was amazing and that I bet, I bet, Well,

746
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:05.280
there's something else I was going to say. Oh, and

747
00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:12.599
then that in the intro of the book, a person

748
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:18.360
I think his family was also like, he's a member

749
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:21.000
of that tribe. The reason I'm not pronouncing it is

750
00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:24.199
because I can't remember how it's pronounced assage or a sage.

751
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:26.400
I don't know how to pronounce stage. Oh, sage, Okay,

752
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:30.679
thank you. So I want to say he was or

753
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:34.960
is a member of the tribe. Yeah, he is, because

754
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:39.440
he wrote his own book and it's referenced in the

755
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:42.320
in his intro to clar Killers of Flower Moon but

756
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:45.559
also at the end of the book the author talks

757
00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:48.039
about like what sources he use and all that, and

758
00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:53.960
so his book is on there. So that's on my TBR. Now.

759
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:57.559
So that book is called The Deaths The Deaths of

760
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:02.119
Sybil Bolton, Oil, Greed and Murder on the Osage Reservation

761
00:47:02.239 --> 00:47:06.239
by Dennis McAuliffe Jr. Oh, all right, I'll have to

762
00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:08.280
add it to my list too. And yeah, I mean

763
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:10.639
they completely did not shy away at all from the

764
00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:14.559
history and the you know, discrimination and the any of

765
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:18.039
good and I mean, I like knew a little bit

766
00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:20.079
of the story, but I'm telling you, like it was

767
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:25.400
so much worse than I thought. Damn. Yeah, I'll have to.

768
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:29.639
I'll have to check it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, do

769
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:35.559
we have any other Well, we should welcome any new listeners, right, yeah,

770
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:39.280
I'm welcome because I made a post on Threads just

771
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:43.519
introducing Spooky Tells and I tag these study as a

772
00:47:43.639 --> 00:47:47.280
known and a lot of people followed. Thank you people,

773
00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:51.719
And I mean, if you, I hope that make you

774
00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:55.039
listen because the obviously our podcast is so much more

775
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:59.880
and better than our Instagram because we barely post on Instagram. Yes, yeah,

776
00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:03.400
we do barely post on there. But yeah, I mean

777
00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:06.079
hopefully you know, you stick around this far. Maybe you

778
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:09.239
started on this episode. I don't know. Some people started

779
00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:13.840
the newest one, so it's weird to me. But yeah, yeah,

780
00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:18.639
and so yeah, welcome. Like I said on trends, we're twins.

781
00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:24.159
We like history and scary stories and we love to talk.

782
00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:30.199
So yeah, that's why we're here. That is why we're here. Yeah.

783
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:33.800
And then I guess one more announcement. We are finally

784
00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.880
making a Patreon. We did have this other thing that

785
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:38.760
I honestly don't know how to use, Like I don't

786
00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:41.039
know how to put different episodes up, and it was

787
00:48:41.079 --> 00:48:42.559
just I was like, I don't like this. I'm used

788
00:48:42.559 --> 00:48:44.920
to Patreon, and you know, I'm like a boomer in

789
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:49.559
that sense, and I will be stubborn about something that

790
00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:53.079
I already know how to get, which is funny because

791
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.280
it's also not true in some other aspects, because like

792
00:48:55.400 --> 00:49:05.639
I went, you taught yourself ever Yeah, but but patreon

793
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:08.239
wise is just so much simpler and easier to use

794
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:10.920
than the other thing. We I don't even it's in

795
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:15.800
LinkedIn every show notes. It's like I don't even remember

796
00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:18.599
the name of it. You know, I'm also going to

797
00:49:18.639 --> 00:49:21.559
be switching us to so that we can be and

798
00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:25.079
this doesn't mean anything to like a basic non podcast

799
00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:27.119
or listener, but I'm going to be moving as a

800
00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:30.960
speaker and it doesn't even mean anything to me exactly.

801
00:49:31.039 --> 00:49:33.519
And we're currently on Megaphone that's where we host the podcast,

802
00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:35.719
but I want to switch a speaker so we can

803
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:38.199
at least like make money off the ads out are

804
00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:41.840
being played, because there's ads in every app, sometimes not

805
00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:44.360
every episode, but yeah, that's why I want to switch

806
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:46.840
the speaker. And when I make the switch, the current

807
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:51.199
thing where we have an ad free feed that's not

808
00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:53.079
going to work anymore. I'm gonna get rid of that.

809
00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:56.039
We have one member on there and it was like

810
00:49:56.079 --> 00:49:57.960
they paid up front for the year, which was just

811
00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:01.159
like thirty dollars. But so I'm going to be getting

812
00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:03.679
rid of that, and then we're gonna be switching to Patreon.

813
00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:05.880
I am gonna put up all our episodes that are

814
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:07.320
going to be out free and then you know, new

815
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:12.239
ones moving forward. But we're also trying to hopefully bring

816
00:50:12.360 --> 00:50:14.559
back like I said, we love cheese met and we

817
00:50:14.679 --> 00:50:17.440
love to talk and what is history but old cheese men?

818
00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:23.159
Like that's what history is ancient historic cheese men? Yeah, important,

819
00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:25.760
cheat man. Cheese men is almost always important, no matter what,

820
00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:29.360
right right, right, right right. So we're gonna be doing

821
00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:33.519
on Patreon Fortia Unknown cheese Mess Unknown. I can't believe

822
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:35.519
it took us this long to think of that. You.

823
00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:37.639
I don't even it was. We're gonna cross my radar.

824
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:39.400
I was like, it was just random. I was just

825
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:42.000
thinking of nothing, and then I was like, cheez, miss Unknown,

826
00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:46.199
You're like sleepeeling you wake up. Che's mess Unknown. Almost

827
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:48.519
basically I was getting ready for bed, well that was

828
00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:50.840
I was already in bed, and then I was saying

829
00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:53.400
good night to you, and then it came to me, okay,

830
00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:57.000
and that's how a Spooky Tales came to me. So beautiful.

831
00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:00.960
So yeah, we're and we're just gonna be covering you know,

832
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:07.440
current cheese man exactly. Yeah, because we have nowhere else

833
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:11.360
to about Internet achievement. It could be political chiatment, it

834
00:51:11.400 --> 00:51:15.119
could be random cheatment. Yeah, and we tried this in

835
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:17.639
the form of a whole separate, just YouTube thing, but

836
00:51:18.039 --> 00:51:20.519
then it scared us so it was too much worth,

837
00:51:20.599 --> 00:51:24.199
too much attention and that. Yeah. Yeah, but at work,

838
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:27.800
if we do it through here. It's people that already

839
00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:33.039
like us exactly, not these weirdo randos on YouTube we're

840
00:51:33.199 --> 00:51:36.960
mad at us for samee stuff. Yeah, so it feels

841
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:39.920
a little safer. So that's going to be on here,

842
00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:44.960
and then of course our ad free episodes. And sometimes

843
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:46.599
I want to do a book club for Restoce and

844
00:51:46.599 --> 00:51:49.079
Known because we read so many books for certain episodes,

845
00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:51.199
but that's going to be further down the line. Maybe

846
00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:53.280
that would be fun, like the one I just talked

847
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:56.000
about would be cool exactly, even when I get the

848
00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:58.920
regular version of yeah, and then you like that would

849
00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:02.920
be cool. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, you know, these are

850
00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:07.920
just feature plan ideas. Yeah, so you know, exciting stuff

851
00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:12.960
coming up. Okay, I guess that brings us to the

852
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:17.559
end of the episode. So thank you everyone for listening

853
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:21.159
and we hope this was one lass yestoria unknown for you.

854
00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:23.119
Bye bye,