Martin Ramirez Sostre

0:00 Hi everyone. This is Carmen and Christina and this is a Study Unknown, a podcast where we talk about Latin American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals with heavy topics like criticism, corruption, and genocide. But more than that, it's also about resistance, power and community. What are we what are we talking about today? Well, Christina, today we are talking about resistance, oppression, all of it, actually all of it, okay, yeah, corruption and racism too, yeah yeah, okay, all of it, but power and community also, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay. So we're talking about a man who is Puerto Rican and black. His name Martin Ramirez Sastre. And then I kept seeing his name just Martin Martin Sostra. And I don't know, like if they if those are both Spanish last names, or it's Saucetray. I don't know. I just kept hearing Martin Saucetray. I mean, it could sounds like it'd be like that's what I thought. So I thought Martin Dramidrez Sostre. Yeah, you know whatever, Martin. Yeah. So Martin changed the prison system from the inside, from the inside. Yeah, from the inside, okay, And yeah, I mean I never heard of him before and it was just like super I don't want to say fun because it was also like it's not it's not a fun their struggle. Yeah, so it's not like all fun. But yeah, I mean it's just super interesting. Awe amazing No, awe awe is

1:33 a word, yeah, like ahe aspiring Yeah that's how I felt. Aw I felt. Oh yeah, that's a full sentence, right. So. Martin Sustra was born on March twentieth, nineteen twenty three, in Harlem to Saturnino Sostre and Chrissinia Ramirez. I love their names. Yeah, there are black parricans. His father was a house painter and mechanic and his mother was a seamstress. So I couldn't find much else in between this and what I'm gonna say next. So Martin ended up dropping out of high school during the Great Depression to help support his family and growing up in Harlan Harlem from the nineteen thirties to the fifties, Martin often heard radical speeches about black nationalism and leftist movements being made in the street corners, and he also learned more about leftist politics from visiting the African National Memorial bookstore, where the owner often allowed customers with little to know money to read books for hours on end, which sounds super cool.

2:43 Oh my god, that is community right there, right beautiful. Yeah. And then Martin also grew up hearing his father make passionate speeches about the vandals, as in the rich people stealing money from the working class, so opposite robin hood situation. Yeah, and he was talking about them, yes, and so he Martin would describe his father as a talking Communist, meaning he talked about it but never did anything. Oh so he said, he was like all talk, no game, right, But I mean his dad was also part of a member of the Communists affiliated Spanish speaking workers club called e le Klube. Meya, okay, that is more than talk, because just being a card member is very risky. Yeah.

3:33 In nineteen forty two, Martin was drafted into the army, but he was later kicked out after getting to a fight, and he came back that same year, nineteen forty two, to Harlem with no skills or job prospects, and Martin described himself during this time as a street juda and hustler. Eventually, in nineteen fifty two, Martin was arrested for a possession of heroin and was sentenced to six to twelve years and he went to prison. So Martin became radicalized in prison. He explained, quote, on the streets you're hustling, you're looking over one shoulder to be sure you don't get busted, and over the other to be sure you don't get ripped off. Living in the streets by your wits makes you alert. In jail, I decided to put that sharpened awareness to another purpose. For the first time, I had a chance to think and began reading everything I could, history, philosophy, and law. And so he describes himself as a politicized prisoner, meaning a prisoner who has become politically aware while in prison, even though the original crime he committed was not political crime. Okay, this is a common story. It is, yeah, but I had never heard that term politicized prisoner before. I only know about it because of the Young Lord's episode that we did where the person who founded the Young Lords.

4:51 I think it's the same situation, or a very similar situation. So I feel like you didn't really talk about that. Now it was a long time ago. I remember, Well, maybe I just read about it, and then I didn't mention it. Yeah, So Martin began his political awareness journey by joining the Nation of Islam, being inspired by Malcolm X, who also became a Black Muslim after going to prison. So Martin studied Islam and he often borrowed the Koran from a fellow inmate, but the problem was that the only Koran in the prison belonged to that inmate. At the time, prison officials did not recognize the Nation of Islam as an authorized religion, and Martin ended up being in solitary confinement for demanding to be allowed visits from black Muslim ministers, just like prisoners of different faiths were allowed. Wow, I mean, I mean we're supposed to have what's it called the freedom of religion, right, I mean, you're supposed to have the right to exercise your religion. Oh, that's what it meant. It's not the same thing, but yeah, but do they both exist. I think they both exist, and they're different. The freedom of religion is yeah, right, maybe right, right of religion. It is supposed to be like governments are not supposed to impose your religion on you, and you're supposed to be able to practice whatever religion of your choosing. We might sound dumb. I think whatever, it doesn't matter. Well, I might cut all though. The point is that his religion was not respected as as a religion and he was not being allowed to practice

6:22 it in prison, while others were yeah, I'm sorry, because what you're thinking is the freedom or the separation of church and state, and technically it would be the same freedom of religion and the right to exercise your own religion. I think technically like the one in the same, like I feel like a there, like a coin on his one signed, the other one right. I want his head and one his tells. Okay, well, someone will correct this, because you know people, as soon as you say something wrong, there's going to be a message like you're dumb, bitch, and I'm just kidding. As long as you're not mean, will welcome it. I love to learn. Yeah yeah, but if for me I mean about it, I'm not gonna cry.

7:03 I'm just gonna be like, what the fuck I will. Despite the horrible conditions of solitary confinement, which included sleeping on a concrete floor with no bed or mattress, having no light, no running water or toilet, Martin continued to fight for his rights, and he along with two other prisoners, sued the warden of the prison and in nineteen sixty one, Martin and the prisoners one. Oh wow. So I saw a few different lawsuits named. But in the article from NPR, which looked like it was from a from an episode of Code Switch, it said that it was the Piers the leavel and Saucetra v. Lavelle lawsuits that inmates were granted the right to practice their religion. But in the short documentary that I watched and said it was from the Saucetra v. McInnes's lawsuits. So I'm not tryingly sure which lawsuit it was, but it was one of those.

8:02 There's multiple lawsuits. Yeah, he sued the prison and the board of what is the parole board more than once. Oh love it. So it was one of those. And what followed was more black Muslims bringing similar suits throughout the United States, and one of those lawsuits, Cooper v. Pate, made its way to the Supreme Court, and this resulted in the court ruling that inmates keep their constitutional rights in prison and could suit in federal courts over prison conditions. So isn't that amazing? So Martin's lawsuit paved the way for this monumental change in prisoner rights. Amazing. That's how I felt reading about this now And I was like, oh my god, how did I not know about this?

8:47 May That's how I felt, Yeah, Like why am I barely learned about this? But where else do you learn? You know, unless you get involved in like prison abolition? You know. Yeah, I was gonna say, where do you learn about prisoner's rights? Like nowhere? Yeah? Less you seek it out yourself and you know, right, Yeah. In the documentary that I watched, I also saw that Martin sued the Prison Board of Attica State challenging that all the all white composition of the New York State Pearl Board was not right. It was like discriminatory. And it was this lawsuit and also the one I talked about before that really paved the way for that Cooper v. Paid that you know, made the Supreme Court was involved in. Awesome. Awesome.

9:32 So after twelve years of imprisonment for drug possession, twelve years for drug possession, that's a long ass time, four of which were spent in solitary confinement, So an entire four years, like NonStop in solitary confinement. I don't think it was all NonStop, but that was like long periods. Okay, I don't remember what the longest that I saw was, but too long, too long, And honestly, solitary come finement is torture. It is a human rights violation. Like I'm sorry, Like you can yell at me or whatever. You know, if you're if you love prison and you love the prison industrial and if you're so yeah that's what it's gonna say, then you can yell at me. Okay, but whatever, just say that, just say it. Yeah, yeah, just say I love just say you're in their ass whatever, like okay, you know, but no, it is. It is super super fucked up. I remember being in Alcatras for let you go in the room for really. Yeah, I was gonna say, I was like, oh my god, I can't see my hands, like I yeah, I was scary. It's scary. Yeah. Yeah, imagine being there for like six months, eight months exactly at a time. No, and so yeah. After the twelve years of imprisonment for drug possession four total years or in total, four years in solitary confinement, Martin was released from Attica in October nineteen sixty four. In March nineteen sixty five, Martin opened Buffalo's Buffalo, New York, Buffalo's own black bookstore while working at Bethlehem Steel. He saved up

11:04 money just to do that because he was so inspired by the bookstore that he grew up. That's beautiful, right. So the bookstore was called the Afro Asian Bookstore, and it sold jazz records, African carvings, as well as black nationalists and anti war literature. Oh my god, literature, I can say that word. Yeah, good job, thank you. By the summer of nineteen sixty seven, Martin had established three bookstores in the black community of Buffalo, and the bookshops became a hub for young black people and white student leftists from the nearby state University of New York at Buffalo. But that only drew a negative attention from law enforcement, and of course right and Martin was repeatedly harassed by the police. They would often go inside the store and question Martin about the quote communist trash she was selling.

11:54 Around this time, Buffalo was experiencing a kind of social of people due to the community's response to ongoing police violence, and Martin's bookstore was being blamed by law enforcement for the uprisings instead of their own behavistead of looking inward at their own behavior and how that could possibly be causing these reactions in the community. Instead of doing that, they blamed Martin at his bookstore. They said, we investigated ourselves and it wasn't us Martin in the bookstore. Yeah. So yeah, in the eyes of the cops, Martin was the leader of the quote ghetto rebellion. That's on the newspaper, but it back then, ghetto rebellion, a rebellion. Yeah, sign me up. I'd like to go to that. Yeah, I'd like to be on the ghetto side. Please team ghetto.

12:48 I'll stop, yeah, please stop. Not just kidding, not kidding that summer riots, or uprisings as we call them, they happened not only in Buffalo, but in other similar cities tie unemployment, police violence, and racial discrimination. What year is this This was in? Oh my god? What year did I say? Oh, nineteen sixty five, this was in March? Yes, of course, okay, makes sense the time we're in Yeah, that there would be similar upright, I'm sorry, oh, sorry to cut you off. I feel like my voice sounds weird because I was traveling all day I went too and back from Riverside, and I didn't drink any water, or at least only like a few SIPs of water, because I didn't want to stop to pee all the time, right, right, of course. I didn't do this out of my own desire.

13:37 It was a work uplidation, Yeah, contractually forced, Yes, I was. Yeah. So I feel like my voice sounds weird because of that. It sounds it feels like when we came back from Denver. Okay. Yeah, there's a little more vocal for I going on, but that's okay. And in Buffalo, over the course of several days, black teens and young men grew to tired of discriminatory treatment that they were receiving from the police, and so they responded the only reasonable way, you know, anyone would with anger, sitting fires, turning cars over, breaking into stores enough of course, yeah, the usual. Yeah. And so because of all of this, most stores were closing early, except the Afro Asian Bookshop. Because Martin took this opportunity to further educate the community, and he would read passages from books and pamphlets out to large crowds during the uprisings. Woww, I love that right, But that's why he was being blamed for it. Yeah. I mean he's not causing them, he's just teaching during yes, yeah, yeah yeah. And a letter about this time, Martin wrote, needless to say, I made political hay in denouncing the police brutality going on outside to large crowds in the store with interest simulated, I would make several cells and create several new freedom fighters with no actual cause. Lee suspected that molotov cocktails were being made in the bookstores basement and that Martin was leading people to wreck havoc. So on the night

15:10 of July fourteenth, nineteen sixty seven, they stormed the store and they arrested Martin as well as one of his staff members. And what charges I'll tell you right now. And they also arrested one of his staff who worked the counter, Gerald Deane Robinson. So I didn't see Jerdan's charges, but Martin was charged with the cell of narcotics, riot, arson, and assault narcotics. Yeah, I'll tell you about that. Was he selling narcotics? No he wasn't. They planted I was like, I don't, doesn't song like he was? Yeah, they planted it. Okay, Okay, that is what I was suspecting. Course, of course, expect of course. Yeah. So law enforcement reported finding molotov cocktail ingredients in the basement of the bookstore, but this was never brought up in court because the cops could never prove that, nor could prove that Martin was inciting the riots because he was not. Eventually, the riot and arson charges were dropped, but the cell of narcotic charges remained due to a key witness, Ardo Williams, reportedly stating he bought fifteen dollars worth the worth of heroin from Martin.

16:24 Martin denied the charges, saying he was just holding onto the money as he had done similar times for Arto in the past, like holding stuff for him, like he held like a suit for him, like just different stuff, and that he was set up by the police. Martin never really faced a fair court process. First, his bill was set really high at fifty thousand because he supposedly made thousands a week from selling drugs. In minds you, there was no evidence that he was really selling drugs, so right, all they had was this line witness. Yet the fifteen dollars and if it's like how many transactions, what do you have to be doing if if they're all fifteen dollars transactions to lead up to what thousands?

17:05 And yeah in a week? Yeah that's no, yeah at least like come on, right, then, before Martin was indicted, Frank philly Chetta, assuming this is pronounced the Buffalo Chetta. Yeah, so yeah, before Martin was indicted, Frank philly Chetta, the Buffalo Commissioner of Police, went to Congress to testify before a congressional committee about the riots from that summer, and he talked about a quote Martin X who ran a bookstore where he taught young black men to make Molotov cocktails and told them to loot and start fires. And then this made the front news in Buffalo and basically taining anyone who would then become part of the grand jury, which is like for the hearing for the illegal right, it's like, uh, what is the supposed to dismiss there by their preconceived notions of something, and that's why the people get sequestered in cases. Yeah, so yeah, basically anyone who were at the front more than news in Buffalo who would be selected as the jury for this grand jury, right, they already had this view of him, and the grand jury is different than like a typical criminal court hearing, and the purpose of the grand jury hearing was they were supposed to meet to consider the charges against Martin and whether to bring those charges to court, if that makes sense. Yeah, okay, So anyway, of course they were going to because they

18:37 already heard all this stuff about the supposed that Martin X, when Martin never went by Martin X and he never did any I have to say, that's a cool name. Well, they're copying from you know, MACMX, Malcolm X. You like, if my name was Martin at that time, I probably would have started calling myself that too, And I guess mart Okay, I'm kidding that, and I'm just kidding anyway. You know what, though, I'm also wondering if this Martinx even existed or if they just completely made it up just because they heard Malcolm X. Okay. This Frank phill Eachattar person was describing Martin to the Congressional Committee, and he gave Martinus moniker of Martin X, and he was describing Martin as this person who was encouraging the young black men to uh loot, to start fires, and to teaching them how to make moll tough cockages when he had no evidence of this, right, and so he created write this nickname for him, which then you know, the news love a nickname and then created this like you know, bias against him in Buffalo. Okay because of this, Understandremony misunderstood this as that was very clear to me at a separate hearing, I know, no, no, and he said, wow, there's a guy named Martin X and he's doing this and they and there was a separate Martin X. There is no Martin X that I made up monica for him. Okay, thank you. I needed that. So, yeah, you're welcome. I'm

20:08 glad that you said that. And I was like, what what they We're confused too, it could be confusing. Yeah, it couldn't just ring me also yes, so yeah, I mean his unfair treatment during the criminal proceedings continued, so he was brought into court and chains, and he ended up being ordered bound and gagged by the judge after Martin denounced the judge as a racial bigot in judicial robes. So like he had to wear like a gag. That's insane, right, that's so humanizing, Yeah, m hm, And like it's not it's not wrong to tell like you should be able to, you know, say, if someone's being racist, you should be able to call them out right, and so no matter who they are writing a judge. So Martin represented himself, but he had no time to prepare for trial because when he was a hearing for what he thought was a request for a reduction in Bell, so emotion hearing requesting a reduction in Bell. The judge denied their request and then immediately started the trial, which seems hell, not right.

21:14 It seems that seems illegal. Yeah, what is that thing where you have a right to like a full process, right, This seems like they're skipping steps right. And then an all white jury found him guilty and the judge sentenced Martin to thirty to forty one years in prison, which was disproportionate to the crime. Wow, it all gets worse. The same judge, judge Frederick Marshall, later sentenced another black man to a five to fifteen year sentence were stabbing and killing his wife. And mind you, the charges that were actually brought to court it was the selling the drugs.

21:55 And I think there was one more, oh know that was it the sell of narcotics. Yeah, that was it. That was the only charge. So thirty to forty one years for a supposed or a leged fifteen dollars dollar yeah, heroin Cell's. And then the same judge turned around and sentenced another black man for killing his wife five to fifteen years, five to fifteen years. Yeah. So I mean it was clear that, like the legal and like law enforcement, there's a clear bias going on here. Yeah. They already didn't like Martin, and in the years that followed, Martin was put in solitary confinement for various reasons, and he was transferred to different prisons as punishment too. So I wasn't super clear on timelines because I saw different timelines from the documentary and then the article that I read.

22:49 So in March or June nineteen sixty eight, Martin was sent to solitary confinement after trying to mail a letter to his attorney which included a motion for a change venue for Geraldine, the woman you know he worked with, who was also arrested. Oh my god, look at him trying to sign up for his people, even behind ours. Yeah. But to the warden, this was Martin practicing law without a license, and he sent Martin to solitary. In total, Martin spent six years in solitary for things like starting a labor union at the prison license plate shop, refusing to shave his beard, and refusing to submit to a rectal exam because he and of course he viewed this as a form of dehumanization, right, which very much is. Yes.

23:35 And then along with solitary confinement, Martin was often beaten by the prison guards, and after one of those beatings, Martin ended up being charged with assaulting the guards and four more years were added to a sentence. And that is a prime example of why the prison system is so I mean, amo among many examples, but so corrupt because once you're in there, they could just keep adding random things that are not even and like, oh you did this, more charges, more charges. So yeah, I'm not at all surprised by this. But still, of course it's infuriating because yeah, it's a story that has gone happened too many times. Yeah, And when Martin was offered an opportunity to reduce his solitary time by participating in group therapy, he refused because this group quote group therapy was facilitated by the prison guards, who only received one week of training, So it's not even real, Like, why would you participate? Yeah, besides them having no actual training in therapy, how would a prisoner ever feel comfortable and ever build rapport and trust with the prison guard Like that's ridiculous. Yeah. In fact, if anything, they could just use whatever against the mission they obtained their Yeah, yeah, huh. Yeah, And Martin continued to fight his conviction, filing motion after motion to novel three years after the trial. Ardo, the key and is, who had a substance dependency issue and reported buying heroin from Martin, was in drug rehab and then he recounted

25:07 his testimony. Ardo admitted in an affidavit that a detective asked him if Martin sold him drugs when he was in jail, and he said yes, because he wanted to get out of jail. So Ardo was in jail, he was dependent on drugs. In other words, people call this an addiction, right, a drug addict, But I don't know, it's we're kind of moving away from trumps like that, right, right, And you're the pioneer of change, so exactly, yes, we'll use these words. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, he was dependent on substances. He was in jail. For drugs, and a police officer approached him and said, hey, is Martin selling drugs?

25:51 And then he's like, yes, get me out of jail now. Yeah, what kind of you know invisation? Is that? No, they were looking for the leading question. Yes, yeah, yeah, so he admitted. Ardo admitted that the police gave him fifteen dollars and marked bills so then they would know that this was spright the fifteen dollars that was used for that transaction. So they gave Ardo fifteen dollars and marked bills to buy drugs from Martin. He also admitted that the heroine he supposedly bought from Martin was already in his pocket from earlier that day when he bought it for himself earlier that day from someone else. Right. And the only thing, which is why Martin was saying like I was only holding this money for him, is because that's all that he asked him to do, because he didn't he'd buy drugs from him, right, he already had them. Yeah, this was brought to the court and everything, but a federal judge did not find Ardo credible and he denied Martin a new trial. I feel like that goes both ways.

26:51 If he was incredible, to believe him, Now, why would he be why would he have been the place? Yeah, Like, how can you say that? They're just like picking and choosing shit? And that is the judicial and prison system in the United States exactly. Another witness testimony was also found to be questionable. So a photographer for the Buffalo Police reported viewing the exchange of money and drugs between Martin and Ardo from eighty feet away from the upstairs building in front of the bookstore. So across there, okay, upstairs, upstairs, Yeah, eighty seed away. He saw this exchange. Does bitch better have had binoculars? And when asked if he took pictures of this exchange, the photographer said he forgot to load his camera. How convenient, right, So Martin did not get another chance at a new trial until a prisoner advocate cross paths with the first black woman appointed as a federal judge. And this visionary judge was US District Court Judge Constance Baker Motley, and she rose in the legal ranks during the Civil Rights movement as a lawyer for the AACP. And she was the first black woman to argue before the Supreme Court in Brown v Board of Education.

28:07 Oh my god, Yeah, this isn't telling you like I love learning about this, Like this was like such a fun thing to research for me. I love when things connect to other things, yes, like other historical you know, time, historical multiverse. Yes, yes, And you know that we come across that so much, we really do. And I love it every single time. Everything is connected, everything everywhere, all that once. Oh my god, So I don't watch that. What I watched that? Oh my god. It's my favorite movie ever done. It changed my life. In July nineteen sixty nine, Judge Baker Motley ordered Martin to be immediately released from solitary confinement, and the following year she held a trial from Martin in Saucetree v. Rockefeller, and she made a ruling about the conditions of Martin's solitary confinement, a ruling in Martin's favor. Judge Baker Motley ruled that Martin was punished because of his legal and political activities and beliefs, and not because of any infractions, which, of course, and she further ruled that Martin's confinement was physically harsh, destructive of morale, dehumanizing in the sense that it is needlessly degrading and dangerous to the maintenance of sanity and should not exceed fifteen days. So she made a ruling that solitary confinement should not exceed fifteen days. And that's still like held today. Not really, I mean it's supposed to be followed in some places. Yeah, but yeah, I

29:40 mean it's the precedent, right. This ruling paved the way for the continued fight against solitary confinement, and there's a lot more. And that's when I read about that it's still not really followed in some places, that the people are still fighting for this to be followed, okay, and that you know, fight against solitary confinement. The larger fight for either prison reform or abolition continues, right. The judge also awarded Martin compensatory damages for each day he was in solitary and punitive damages. So like I forgot and write down the amount of money. But of course, no amount of money, you know, can make up for everything. Yeah, however, hopefully it helps a little bit. Yeah. The prison guards responded to Martin's victory by trying to pit the white prisoners against the black ones and trying to incite a race riot. Oh my god. But it didn't work. It didn't work because the white prisoners acknowledge that Martin's victory was also their victory because they were also not going to be sent to solitary for no reason and for more than fifteen days at a time. So they were like, nah, no, we're good. Yeah, we're all winning today. This also led to further uprisings from prisoners, and so I just wanted to briefly talk about one of them that I read about. So, yeah, the following year after this ruling, over one hundred, no a thousand, over a thousand prisoners in Attica. I was gonna say, before you even said, Aine, is it the

31:11 Attica prison uprising? Yes, it is. Yeah, they were inspired by Martin. I didn't know this. I have, I've hadn't read about and listened to episodes about the Attica Uprising, but I had no idea that it's got connected to this black Latino man. Like, yes, amazing, Brian, Right, here's another historical multiverse thing going on. Yes, yes, so yeah, right. The prisoners in Attica demanded rights and better conditions, things like better medical treatment, the right to read political newspapers, to form labor unions, to have regular showers, basic rights. Yeah. Well, and another thing, to have more than one a bar of soap and toilet paper a month, a month, a month. Yeah, imagine only being allotted one toilet paper a month. And yeah if for those that don't know, the Attica prison uprising turned it deadly when the governor Rockefeller sent in state troopers to quash it. Right. Yeah. So then finally, in nineteen seventy five, after Martin was moved to a different prison due to his life being in danger because the violence from the prison guards, a nationwide campaign to free Martin was started by Daniel Berrigan, an activist priest.

32:26 We love an activist priest. Yes, And I didn't write down the new prison he was sent to, but I guess it was an easier location for activists to visit, and so it led this movement to gain more traction and stuff like that, And despite opposition from law enforcement and prosecutors and Buffalo, the campaign gained enough traction that on Christmas Eve of that year, nineteen seventy five, New York Governor Hugh Carey granted Martin executive clemency so he was free. He was free. Oh, amazing, truly amazing. In total, Martin had spent about twenty years in prison, twenty years of his life in prison with both of the sentences right, and Martin worried that he wouldn't be able to acclimate to civilian life after two decades of institutionalization and imprisonment, and he said the following prison is a close society with forty foot walls and the public can't see in.

33:31 I consider the outside only a minimum security and inside prison a sort of maximum security. So in a sense he kind of felt safer inside. And I feel like that's such a also common sentiment between those that have been in prison. Yeah, such a great visualization of this and also such a sad, sad, sad story. But when they see us the show on Netflix, oh my god, yes, oh god, I cannot ever rewatch that one time was enough? The thing amazing. I mean, there's the reason that Jerome won, right, what was it like an oscar whatever? Like actors win, right, because I am I'm sorry, I don't ever won't remember because he was amazing in the show. But it follows the case of the Central Park teenagers five, yeah, that were accused of you know, raping and killing a woman.

34:24 And it was uh, oh, you know part Ada using them for their imprisonments and accusing them Trump. Yes, and this is they didn't do this at all. No complete but yeah, in the show, you can see that they get out and a lot of them end up back in for different things because it's they were in for so long. How do you when you come out the system though, everything has again set up against you. Yeah. Two, and it's set up for you to fail again basically, and that's on purpose because the United States needs the free labor so right. So in February nineteen seventy six, it took time for the clemency to be processed. I'm not really sure. Martin finally walked out of prison and became a free man. In a press conference at the UN he held the day after his release, Martin said the following, I know it's fashionable to say I'm not bitter.

35:14 Of course I am, of course, and no, absolutely, no one can blame him for that, right, and the creation shouldn't. Right, And the quote goes on, I lost the nine years of my life. I'm a human being, I'm bitter. This sort of thing goes on in a so called humane society. And so yeah, this last sentence was nine years, and the one before that was I think of almost ten, so right, for a total of almost twenty. So Martin continued his activism after being released, and he organized with fellow tenants against bad landlords, and he also set up daycares and after school programs in his community. That's beautiful, Oh my god. Yeah. Describing his work as a housing tenant advocate, Martin said, the battlefield has changed from the dungeon to the street, but the repression is the same.

36:02 Is that cool? So why is god? Yeah? And you know what, like, I don't know, I'm going to send pictures of him and post them, but he just looks cool. Despite his activism, Martin constantly worried that his freedom would be taken from him at any second, and that he would be sent back to prison for any reason. And this was a valid concern because some conditions of his parole were vague and just completely up to interpretation. For example, one condition of his parole stated that Martin's behavior would not be a menace to society. What kind of shit is that? I know who defines what that means? And so yeah, Martin worried that expressing criticism of the government and the prison system could be interpreted as the behavior that's menacing to society. Mm hmm. And then other terms of his parole included him not being able to marry, to buy a car, or to go his job without obtaining permission of his parole officer. So talk about dehumanizing. Wow.

37:05 So yeah, Martin continued his activism, but sometimes it was difficult for him to work with others and he preferred and was used to doing things alone, especially because all the time he spent in solitary confinement. Right. Martin met his wife, Philz through her own prison reform work, and the pair went on to have two sons, Mark and Vinnie. At one point there were talks with James Earl Jones of a TV movie being made of Martin's life, but that fell through when Martin and James said no because they felt like the writers were watering down the story too much. And along with organizing and renters, Martin also formed a block association. So this is when renters from different buildings on the same block formed together, like kind of like a you know, union or whatever. Yeah, and he also bought abandoned buildings with a friend in New Jersey and taught teens how to do construction. Oh my god, who has time and I don't believe it right Through the same program, he also started a daycare anters to a program, and I think that's the one I mentioned earlier.

38:08 It was program. In nineteen eighty four, Martin was once again thrown into the clause of the criminal justice system when he shot a man in self defense. So what happened was that Martin was evicting a tenant from a building he was managing when the man and his friend, who had a gun, threatened him. So the man and the man's friend threatened Martin with the gun, and Martin then grabbed a gun and it went off, shooting the tenant, who suffered from a superficial neck wound. So Martin was charged with attempted murder, and in fear that he would be killed in prison, that he would be sent back and killed in prison due to his prison reform advocacy work, he fled New York. He didn't feel like he would get a fair trial and all that, so there's no way, so he fled, basically becoming a fugitive. Martin hid in Florida, while his wife, Liz was left care for their sons alone, and Liz and the boys often visited Martin, and one time they even went to Disney World while he was technically a fugitive. Oh god, honestly love that for them. Yeah, so two years went by like this, So she would sneak out and she would sneak out of their apartment with like the kids like in hiding bags, Like they would hide themselves to sneak out to visit him because they were afraid that the cops are following them, which could be true. Yeah. So yeah, two years went by and then Martin visited New York and he was caught visiting one of his favorite places, a law library. But yeah,

39:44 I mean at trial, he represented himself and he was acquitted. Oh my god, that's amazing. Yeah. So Martin lived until the age of ninety two, when his health had been declining for a few years after suffering from a series of strokes. In the later years of his life, he spoke less about his time in prison, although his sons said that he was always talking about politics and current events. And of course, right, I mean, like I feel like you never really let that go if that's how you you know, grew up live and yeah, lived basically. Yeah. Martin even left any letters from journalists and academics unopened in a pile because he felt like that part of his life was in the past. But he always responded to inmates that he knew in prison. Oh and he passed away on August twelfth, twenty fifteen, with no media attention.

40:39 But anyone who's an anti prison in industrial complex, you know, person should know his name. Yeah. I saw this quote from the article that I read that I want to share, and it's from a historian. No single figure played a greater role in securing illegal rights for prisoners in the history of US prisons than Martin sastry Man. That's so true. So I just yeah, wow, Yeah, it was truly in awe of Martin when I was reading, seriously, like he just never stopped working. Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm amazed because not only obviously the prison you know, reformed stuff that he did, like you know, the Salagia confinements, that enough for himself, but daycares renters right like a ninety two.

41:26 That's that's a lot of long, long life. So I'm just glad that he after he was able to after he was released from prison. He lived a long life. Yeah, long fulfilling life. Seriously. The Martin Sastry Institute still maintains a website that includes an archive of his writings and pictures and films about him. So and that'll be linked in the sources. So cool website to check out. Cool and Yeah that's Martin Sastry, Martin Ramirez Saustry. Wow, seriously, thank you for sharing his story because I did not know about him. Yeah. No, and huge shout out to I follow working class history. I think it is. Oh yes, I linked included the link in those sources. Okay, people can see that, But that's how I found out about him.

42:14 That's a great wealth of information there too. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I'm just I'm just amazed that there's just, you know, people out here that had did so much and like I had no idea about them. Yeah, that's why we have this podcast so exactly exactly. Oh man. Also, I know we don't really do recommendations here, but I did just read, or I finished recently, the Killers of the Flower Moon book and it was amazing. I accidentally, actually not accidentally, but my library apparently only has the version that's adopted for young readers. I didn't realize this. I didn't.

42:57 That's fine, I didn't. It's a sense that it was for younger readers. When I was reading it, it was like a regular book, but I don't know. It comes with a glossary and like an index of like all the people. So I'm like, okay, maybe that's why I didn't have trouble, Like I didn't need those things. But I don't know if it's maybe it's shorter and includes those or what. Maybe maybe it's like an abridge. Yeah, so I'm gonna look for the regular version. But it was still good, honestly, No, I'm sure, And it makes me want to watch the movie. But it's only on Apple TV, so that suns. Yeah, but you know a lot of because basically this is a true true crime book.

43:42 But a lot of true crime books the reason I sometimes don't like reading them is because they're too pro I guess, like hop yes, which is the case with a lot of even like yeah, any type of true crime media, right right, But this book focused on the like historical injustice against indigenous people, the bias that the law enforcement and judicial system had and it's it's so much worse than I thought, like, and I remember, actually I listened to an episode about this, The Killers of the Flower Moon from I think I told you about the podcast before, but I want to relisten now that I read the book and have a clear understanding of who's who. But I listened to hold on, let me look for it. Yeah, because I don't remember having this conversation where you told me about something like this, a podcast about indigenous like folklore, myth scary stories. It is nightmares of the Americas, that colon thing indigenous tells. Okay, I don't remember this, you know. Well. Yeah, so I listened to a few I've and I'm like kind of behind on podcast, so I have I listened in a while.

45:01 But yeah, so they have one, two, three, four parter on this, so I'm gonna re listen to those now that I know a little bit more. Yes, yes, I'll have to check that out. They also had an episode on they do some Latin American because you know, it's kind of a lot of the Latin American one comes from Latin American indigenous indigenous people. Yeah, and they had an episode on the other was more those two. Okay, okay, I'll have to check this out. I want to relisten to those because they, you know, have their four partner. And then I'm going to look for the regular version of the book someday when I visit my friend again who has Apple TV. I'm gonna watch it with her.

45:43 And I mean the movie, you know, award winning but the Gladstone. Yeah, like i'd watch it for her alone, for the women in the movie. Did you watch Under the Bridge? Yeah? No, I still need to. I forgot what it was called. And then I kept forgetting to ask she was amazing and that I bet, I bet, Well, there's something else I was going to say. Oh, and then that in the intro of the book, a person I think his family was also like, he's a member of that tribe. The reason I'm not pronouncing it is because I can't remember how it's pronounced assage or a sage.

46:24 I don't know how to pronounce stage. Oh, sage, Okay, thank you. So I want to say he was or is a member of the tribe. Yeah, he is, because he wrote his own book and it's referenced in the in his intro to clar Killers of Flower Moon but also at the end of the book the author talks about like what sources he use and all that, and so his book is on there. So that's on my TBR. Now. So that book is called The Deaths The Deaths of Sybil Bolton, Oil, Greed and Murder on the Osage Reservation by Dennis McAuliffe Jr. Oh, all right, I'll have to add it to my list too. And yeah, I mean they completely did not shy away at all from the history and the you know, discrimination and the any of good and I mean, I like knew a little bit of the story, but I'm telling you, like it was so much worse than I thought. Damn. Yeah, I'll have to.

47:26 I'll have to check it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, do we have any other Well, we should welcome any new listeners, right, yeah, I'm welcome because I made a post on Threads just introducing Spooky Tells and I tag these study as a known and a lot of people followed. Thank you people, And I mean, if you, I hope that make you listen because the obviously our podcast is so much more and better than our Instagram because we barely post on Instagram. Yes, yeah, we do barely post on there. But yeah, I mean hopefully you know, you stick around this far. Maybe you started on this episode. I don't know. Some people started the newest one, so it's weird to me. But yeah, yeah, and so yeah, welcome. Like I said on trends, we're twins.

48:20 We like history and scary stories and we love to talk. So yeah, that's why we're here. That is why we're here. Yeah. And then I guess one more announcement. We are finally making a Patreon. We did have this other thing that I honestly don't know how to use, Like I don't know how to put different episodes up, and it was just I was like, I don't like this. I'm used to Patreon, and you know, I'm like a boomer in that sense, and I will be stubborn about something that I already know how to get, which is funny because it's also not true in some other aspects, because like I went, you taught yourself ever Yeah, but but patreon wise is just so much simpler and easier to use than the other thing. We I don't even it's in LinkedIn every show notes. It's like I don't even remember the name of it. You know, I'm also going to be switching us to so that we can be and this doesn't mean anything to like a basic non podcast or listener, but I'm going to be moving as a speaker and it doesn't even mean anything to me exactly.

49:31 And we're currently on Megaphone that's where we host the podcast, but I want to switch a speaker so we can at least like make money off the ads out are being played, because there's ads in every app, sometimes not every episode, but yeah, that's why I want to switch the speaker. And when I make the switch, the current thing where we have an ad free feed that's not going to work anymore. I'm gonna get rid of that. We have one member on there and it was like they paid up front for the year, which was just like thirty dollars. But so I'm going to be getting rid of that, and then we're gonna be switching to Patreon. I am gonna put up all our episodes that are going to be out free and then you know, new ones moving forward. But we're also trying to hopefully bring back like I said, we love cheese met and we love to talk and what is history but old cheese men?

50:17 Like that's what history is ancient historic cheese men? Yeah, important, cheat man. Cheese men is almost always important, no matter what, right right, right, right right. So we're gonna be doing on Patreon Fortia Unknown cheese Mess Unknown. I can't believe it took us this long to think of that. You. I don't even it was. We're gonna cross my radar. I was like, it was just random. I was just thinking of nothing, and then I was like, cheez, miss Unknown, You're like sleepeeling you wake up. Che's mess Unknown. Almost basically I was getting ready for bed, well that was I was already in bed, and then I was saying good night to you, and then it came to me, okay, and that's how a Spooky Tales came to me. So beautiful.

50:58 So yeah, we're and we're just gonna be covering you know, current cheese man exactly. Yeah, because we have nowhere else to about Internet achievement. It could be political chiatment, it could be random cheatment. Yeah, and we tried this in the form of a whole separate, just YouTube thing, but then it scared us so it was too much worth, too much attention and that. Yeah. Yeah, but at work, if we do it through here. It's people that already like us exactly, not these weirdo randos on YouTube we're mad at us for samee stuff. Yeah, so it feels a little safer. So that's going to be on here, and then of course our ad free episodes. And sometimes I want to do a book club for Restoce and Known because we read so many books for certain episodes, but that's going to be further down the line. Maybe that would be fun, like the one I just talked about would be cool exactly, even when I get the regular version of yeah, and then you like that would be cool. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, you know, these are just feature plan ideas. Yeah, so you know, exciting stuff coming up. Okay, I guess that brings us to the end of the episode. So thank you everyone for listening and we hope this was one lass yestoria unknown for you.

52:22 Bye bye,