Aug. 8, 2024

Martin Ramirez Sostre

Martin Ramirez Sostre

Martin Sostre was a pioneer for prison reform and prisoner rights. His fight against the injustices he faced as a prisoner helped secure rights for all prisoners, and continue to be an inspiration for those resisting the prison-industrial complex. ...

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Martin Sostre was a pioneer for prison reform and prisoner rights. His fight against the injustices he faced as a prisoner helped secure rights for all prisoners, and continue to be an inspiration for those resisting the prison-industrial complex.

If you have topic suggestions, feel free to email Historiasunknownpodcast@gmail.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/historiasunknown/

Sources:
https://www.instagram.com/p/C9asvdCS5HL/?igsh=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng%3D%3D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4Y0n1uvgLA&t=436s
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/14/507297469/how-one-inmate-changed-the-prison-system-from-the-inside
https://www.martinsostre.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Sostre

WEBVTT

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Hi everyone. This is Carmen and Christina and this is

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a Study Unknown, a podcast where we talk about Latin

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American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals with heavy topics

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like criticism, corruption, and genocide. But more than that, it's

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also about resistance, power and community. What are we what

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are we talking about today? Well, Christina, today we are

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talking about resistance, oppression, all of it, actually all of it, okay, yeah,

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corruption and racism too, yeah yeah, okay, all of it,

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but power and community also, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay.

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So we're talking about a man who is Puerto Rican

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and black. His name Martin Ramirez Sastre. And then I

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kept seeing his name just Martin Martin Sostra. And I

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don't know, like if they if those are both Spanish

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last names, or it's Saucetray. I don't know. I just

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kept hearing Martin Saucetray. I mean, it could sounds like

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it'd be like that's what I thought. So I thought

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Martin Dramidrez Sostre. Yeah, you know whatever, Martin. Yeah. So

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Martin changed the prison system from the inside, from the inside. Yeah,

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from the inside, okay, And yeah, I mean I never

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heard of him before and it was just like super

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I don't want to say fun because it was also

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like it's not it's not a fun their struggle. Yeah,

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so it's not like all fun. But yeah, I mean

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it's just super interesting. Awe amazing No, awe awe is

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a word, yeah, like ahe aspiring Yeah that's how I felt.

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Aw I felt. Oh yeah, that's a full sentence, right. So.

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Martin Sustra was born on March twentieth, nineteen twenty three,

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in Harlem to Saturnino Sostre and Chrissinia Ramirez. I love

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their names. Yeah, there are black parricans. His father was

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a house painter and mechanic and his mother was a seamstress.

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So I couldn't find much else in between this and

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what I'm gonna say next. So Martin ended up dropping

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out of high school during the Great Depression to help

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support his family and growing up in Harlan Harlem from

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the nineteen thirties to the fifties, Martin often heard radical

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speeches about black nationalism and leftist movements being made in

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the street corners, and he also learned more about leftist

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politics from visiting the African National Memorial bookstore, where the

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owner often allowed customers with little to know money to

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read books for hours on end, which sounds super cool.

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Oh my god, that is community right there, right beautiful. Yeah.

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And then Martin also grew up hearing his father make

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passionate speeches about the vandals, as in the rich people

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stealing money from the working class, so opposite robin hood situation. Yeah,

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and he was talking about them, yes, and so he

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Martin would describe his father as a talking Communist, meaning

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he talked about it but never did anything. Oh so

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he said, he was like all talk, no game, right,

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But I mean his dad was also part of a

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member of the Communists affiliated Spanish speaking workers club called

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e le Klube. Meya, okay, that is more than talk,

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because just being a card member is very risky. Yeah.

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In nineteen forty two, Martin was drafted into the army,

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but he was later kicked out after getting to a fight,

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and he came back that same year, nineteen forty two,

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to Harlem with no skills or job prospects, and Martin

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described himself during this time as a street juda and hustler. Eventually,

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in nineteen fifty two, Martin was arrested for a possession

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of heroin and was sentenced to six to twelve years

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and he went to prison. So Martin became radicalized in prison.

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He explained, quote, on the streets you're hustling, you're looking

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over one shoulder to be sure you don't get busted,

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and over the other to be sure you don't get

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ripped off. Living in the streets by your wits makes

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you alert. In jail, I decided to put that sharpened

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awareness to another purpose. For the first time, I had

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a chance to think and began reading everything I could, history, philosophy,

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and law. And so he describes himself as a politicized prisoner,

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meaning a prisoner who has become politically aware while in prison,

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even though the original crime he committed was not political crime. Okay,

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this is a common story. It is, yeah, but I

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had never heard that term politicized prisoner before. I only

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know about it because of the Young Lord's episode that

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we did where the person who founded the Young Lords.

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I think it's the same situation, or a very similar situation.

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So I feel like you didn't really talk about that.

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Now it was a long time ago. I remember, Well,

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maybe I just read about it, and then I didn't

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mention it. Yeah, So Martin began his political awareness journey

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by joining the Nation of Islam, being inspired by Malcolm X,

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who also became a Black Muslim after going to prison.

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So Martin studied Islam and he often borrowed the Koran

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from a fellow inmate, but the problem was that the

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only Koran in the prison belonged to that inmate. At

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the time, prison officials did not recognize the Nation of

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Islam as an authorized religion, and Martin ended up being

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in solitary confinement for demanding to be allowed visits from

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black Muslim ministers, just like prisoners of different faiths were allowed. Wow,

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I mean, I mean we're supposed to have what's it

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called the freedom of religion, right, I mean, you're supposed

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to have the right to exercise your religion. Oh, that's

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what it meant. It's not the same thing, but yeah,

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but do they both exist. I think they both exist,

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and they're different. The freedom of religion is yeah, right,

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maybe right, right of religion. It is supposed to be

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like governments are not supposed to impose your religion on you,

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and you're supposed to be able to practice whatever religion

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of your choosing. We might sound dumb. I think whatever,

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it doesn't matter. Well, I might cut all though. The

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point is that his religion was not respected as as

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a religion and he was not being allowed to practice

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it in prison, while others were yeah, I'm sorry, because

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what you're thinking is the freedom or the separation of

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church and state, and technically it would be the same

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freedom of religion and the right to exercise your own religion.

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I think technically like the one in the same, like

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I feel like a there, like a coin on his

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one signed, the other one right. I want his head

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and one his tells. Okay, well, someone will correct this,

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because you know people, as soon as you say something wrong,

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there's going to be a message like you're dumb, bitch,

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and I'm just kidding. As long as you're not mean,

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will welcome it. I love to learn. Yeah yeah, but

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if for me I mean about it, I'm not gonna cry.

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I'm just gonna be like, what the fuck I will.

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Despite the horrible conditions of solitary confinement, which included sleeping

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on a concrete floor with no bed or mattress, having

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no light, no running water or toilet, Martin continued to

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fight for his rights, and he along with two other prisoners,

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sued the warden of the prison and in nineteen sixty one,

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Martin and the prisoners one. Oh wow. So I saw

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a few different lawsuits named. But in the article from NPR,

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which looked like it was from a from an episode

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of Code Switch, it said that it was the Piers

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the leavel and Saucetra v. Lavelle lawsuits that inmates were

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granted the right to practice their religion. But in the

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short documentary that I watched and said it was from

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the Saucetra v. McInnes's lawsuits. So I'm not tryingly sure

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which lawsuit it was, but it was one of those.

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There's multiple lawsuits. Yeah, he sued the prison and the

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board of what is the parole board more than once.

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Oh love it. So it was one of those. And

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what followed was more black Muslims bringing similar suits throughout

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the United States, and one of those lawsuits, Cooper v. Pate,

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made its way to the Supreme Court, and this resulted

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in the court ruling that inmates keep their constitutional rights

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in prison and could suit in federal courts over prison conditions.

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So isn't that amazing? So Martin's lawsuit paved the way

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for this monumental change in prisoner rights. Amazing. That's how

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I felt reading about this now And I was like,

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oh my god, how did I not know about this?

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May That's how I felt, Yeah, Like why am I

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barely learned about this? But where else do you learn?

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You know, unless you get involved in like prison abolition?

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You know. Yeah, I was gonna say, where do you

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learn about prisoner's rights? Like nowhere? Yeah? Less you seek

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it out yourself and you know, right, Yeah. In the

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documentary that I watched, I also saw that Martin sued

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the Prison Board of Attica State challenging that all the

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all white composition of the New York State Pearl Board

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was not right. It was like discriminatory. And it was

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this lawsuit and also the one I talked about before

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that really paved the way for that Cooper v. Paid

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that you know, made the Supreme Court was involved in. Awesome. Awesome.

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So after twelve years of imprisonment for drug possession, twelve

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years for drug possession, that's a long ass time, four

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of which were spent in solitary confinement, So an entire

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four years, like NonStop in solitary confinement. I don't think

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it was all NonStop, but that was like long periods. Okay,

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I don't remember what the longest that I saw was,

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but too long, too long, And honestly, solitary come finement

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is torture. It is a human rights violation. Like I'm sorry,

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Like you can yell at me or whatever. You know,

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if you're if you love prison and you love the

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prison industrial and if you're so yeah that's what it's

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gonna say, then you can yell at me. Okay, but whatever,

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just say that, just say it. Yeah, yeah, just say

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I love just say you're in their ass whatever, like okay,

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you know, but no, it is. It is super super

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fucked up. I remember being in Alcatras for let you

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go in the room for really. Yeah, I was gonna say,

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I was like, oh my god, I can't see my hands,

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like I yeah, I was scary. It's scary. Yeah. Yeah,

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imagine being there for like six months, eight months exactly

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at a time. No, and so yeah. After the twelve

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years of imprisonment for drug possession four total years or

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in total, four years in solitary confinement, Martin was released

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from Attica in October nineteen sixty four. In March nineteen

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sixty five, Martin opened Buffalo's Buffalo, New York, Buffalo's own

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black bookstore while working at Bethlehem Steel. He saved up

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money just to do that because he was so inspired

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by the bookstore that he grew up. That's beautiful, right.

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So the bookstore was called the Afro Asian Bookstore, and

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it sold jazz records, African carvings, as well as black

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nationalists and anti war literature. Oh my god, literature, I

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can say that word. Yeah, good job, thank you. By

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the summer of nineteen sixty seven, Martin had established three

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bookstores in the black community of Buffalo, and the bookshops

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became a hub for young black people and white student

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leftists from the nearby state University of New York at Buffalo.

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But that only drew a negative attention from law enforcement,

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and of course right and Martin was repeatedly harassed by

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the police. They would often go inside the store and

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question Martin about the quote communist trash she was selling.

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Around this time, Buffalo was experiencing a kind of social

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of people due to the community's response to ongoing police violence,

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and Martin's bookstore was being blamed by law enforcement for

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the uprisings instead of their own behavistead of looking inward

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at their own behavior and how that could possibly be

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causing these reactions in the community. Instead of doing that,

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they blamed Martin at his bookstore. They said, we investigated

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ourselves and it wasn't us Martin in the bookstore. Yeah.

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So yeah, in the eyes of the cops, Martin was

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the leader of the quote ghetto rebellion. That's on the newspaper,

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but it back then, ghetto rebellion, a rebellion. Yeah, sign

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me up. I'd like to go to that. Yeah, I'd

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like to be on the ghetto side. Please team ghetto.

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I'll stop, yeah, please stop. Not just kidding, not kidding

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that summer riots, or uprisings as we call them, they

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happened not only in Buffalo, but in other similar cities

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tie unemployment, police violence, and racial discrimination. What year is

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this This was in? Oh my god? What year did

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I say? Oh, nineteen sixty five, this was in March? Yes,

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of course, okay, makes sense the time we're in Yeah,

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that there would be similar upright, I'm sorry, oh, sorry

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to cut you off. I feel like my voice sounds

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weird because I was traveling all day I went too

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and back from Riverside, and I didn't drink any water,

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or at least only like a few SIPs of water,

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because I didn't want to stop to pee all the time, right, right,

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of course. I didn't do this out of my own desire.

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It was a work uplidation, Yeah, contractually forced, Yes, I was. Yeah.

223
00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:47.519
So I feel like my voice sounds weird because of that.

224
00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:52.200
It sounds it feels like when we came back from Denver. Okay. Yeah,

225
00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:54.480
there's a little more vocal for I going on, but

226
00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:58.159
that's okay. And in Buffalo, over the course of several days,

227
00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.360
black teens and young men grew to tired of discriminatory

228
00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.159
treatment that they were receiving from the police, and so

229
00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.320
they responded the only reasonable way, you know, anyone would

230
00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:10.919
with anger, sitting fires, turning cars over, breaking into stores

231
00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:14.639
enough of course, yeah, the usual. Yeah. And so because

232
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:17.960
of all of this, most stores were closing early, except

233
00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.320
the Afro Asian Bookshop. Because Martin took this opportunity to

234
00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:25.279
further educate the community, and he would read passages from

235
00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:30.080
books and pamphlets out to large crowds during the uprisings. Woww,

236
00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:32.879
I love that right, But that's why he was being

237
00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:36.600
blamed for it. Yeah. I mean he's not causing them,

238
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:41.320
he's just teaching during yes, yeah, yeah yeah. And a

239
00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:45.480
letter about this time, Martin wrote, needless to say, I

240
00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:49.200
made political hay in denouncing the police brutality going on

241
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:53.360
outside to large crowds in the store with interest simulated,

242
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.879
I would make several cells and create several new freedom

243
00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:02.960
fighters with no actual cause. Lee suspected that molotov cocktails

244
00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.039
were being made in the bookstores basement and that Martin

245
00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:10.120
was leading people to wreck havoc. So on the night

246
00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:14.240
of July fourteenth, nineteen sixty seven, they stormed the store

247
00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:17.159
and they arrested Martin as well as one of his

248
00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:20.200
staff members. And what charges I'll tell you right now.

249
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:23.240
And they also arrested one of his staff who worked

250
00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:28.879
the counter, Gerald Deane Robinson. So I didn't see Jerdan's charges,

251
00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:32.799
but Martin was charged with the cell of narcotics, riot, arson,

252
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:37.080
and assault narcotics. Yeah, I'll tell you about that. Was

253
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:41.000
he selling narcotics? No he wasn't. They planted I was like,

254
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.399
I don't, doesn't song like he was? Yeah, they planted it. Okay, Okay,

255
00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:51.279
that is what I was suspecting. Course, of course, expect

256
00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:57.799
of course. Yeah. So law enforcement reported finding molotov cocktail

257
00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:00.720
ingredients in the basement of the bookstore, but this was

258
00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:03.039
never brought up in court because the cops could never

259
00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:06.879
prove that, nor could prove that Martin was inciting the

260
00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:10.799
riots because he was not. Eventually, the riot and arson

261
00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:14.519
charges were dropped, but the cell of narcotic charges remained

262
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:20.440
due to a key witness, Ardo Williams, reportedly stating he

263
00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:23.840
bought fifteen dollars worth the worth of heroin from Martin.

264
00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:27.679
Martin denied the charges, saying he was just holding onto

265
00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:30.840
the money as he had done similar times for Arto

266
00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.039
in the past, like holding stuff for him, like he

267
00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.639
held like a suit for him, like just different stuff,

268
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.360
and that he was set up by the police. Martin

269
00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:42.240
never really faced a fair court process. First, his bill

270
00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:47.120
was set really high at fifty thousand because he supposedly

271
00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:50.720
made thousands a week from selling drugs. In minds you,

272
00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:53.000
there was no evidence that he was really selling drugs,

273
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:56.639
so right, all they had was this line witness. Yet

274
00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:59.960
the fifteen dollars and if it's like how many transactions,

275
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:02.360
what do you have to be doing if if they're

276
00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:05.480
all fifteen dollars transactions to lead up to what thousands?

277
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:10.440
And yeah in a week? Yeah that's no, yeah at

278
00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:15.680
least like come on, right, then, before Martin was indicted,

279
00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:21.200
Frank philly Chetta, assuming this is pronounced the Buffalo Chetta. Yeah,

280
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.799
so yeah, before Martin was indicted, Frank philly Chetta, the

281
00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:28.759
Buffalo Commissioner of Police, went to Congress to testify before

282
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:32.640
a congressional committee about the riots from that summer, and

283
00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.440
he talked about a quote Martin X who ran a

284
00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:39.519
bookstore where he taught young black men to make Molotov

285
00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:42.839
cocktails and told them to loot and start fires. And

286
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:46.920
then this made the front news in Buffalo and basically

287
00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:52.440
taining anyone who would then become part of the grand jury,

288
00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:58.200
which is like for the hearing for the illegal right, it's like, uh,

289
00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:02.200
what is the supposed to dismiss there by their preconceived

290
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:06.200
notions of something, and that's why the people get sequestered

291
00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:11.359
in cases. Yeah, so yeah, basically anyone who were at

292
00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.640
the front more than news in Buffalo who would be

293
00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:18.319
selected as the jury for this grand jury, right, they

294
00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:21.920
already had this view of him, and the grand jury

295
00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.119
is different than like a typical criminal court hearing, and

296
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.039
the purpose of the grand jury hearing was they were

297
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:31.200
supposed to meet to consider the charges against Martin and

298
00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:35.000
whether to bring those charges to court, if that makes sense. Yeah, okay,

299
00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:37.079
So anyway, of course they were going to because they

300
00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:39.359
already heard all this stuff about the supposed that Martin X,

301
00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:43.400
when Martin never went by Martin X and he never

302
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.799
did any I have to say, that's a cool name. Well,

303
00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:50.720
they're copying from you know, MACMX, Malcolm X. You like,

304
00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:53.160
if my name was Martin at that time, I probably

305
00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:56.599
would have started calling myself that too, And I guess

306
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:01.200
mart Okay, I'm kidding that, and I'm just kidding anyway.

307
00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.160
You know what, though, I'm also wondering if this Martinx

308
00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:06.440
even existed or if they just completely made it up

309
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:09.839
just because they heard Malcolm X. Okay. This Frank phill

310
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:15.920
Eachattar person was describing Martin to the Congressional Committee, and

311
00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:22.240
he gave Martinus moniker of Martin X, and he was

312
00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:25.599
describing Martin as this person who was encouraging the young

313
00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:29.319
black men to uh loot, to start fires, and to

314
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:31.720
teaching them how to make moll tough cockages when he

315
00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.519
had no evidence of this, right, and so he created

316
00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:37.279
write this nickname for him, which then you know, the

317
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.519
news love a nickname and then created this like you know,

318
00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:47.079
bias against him in Buffalo. Okay because of this, Understandremony

319
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:50.160
misunderstood this as that was very clear to me at

320
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.640
a separate hearing, I know, no, no, and he said, wow,

321
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:56.000
there's a guy named Martin X and he's doing this

322
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:58.680
and they and there was a separate Martin X. There

323
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:04.599
is no Martin X that I made up monica for him. Okay,

324
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.400
thank you. I needed that. So, yeah, you're welcome. I'm

325
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.200
glad that you said that. And I was like, what

326
00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:14.519
what they We're confused too, it could be confusing. Yeah,

327
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.680
it couldn't just ring me also yes, so yeah, I

328
00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.920
mean his unfair treatment during the criminal proceedings continued, so

329
00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:25.279
he was brought into court and chains, and he ended

330
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:29.519
up being ordered bound and gagged by the judge after

331
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:33.400
Martin denounced the judge as a racial bigot in judicial robes.

332
00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:38.599
So like he had to wear like a gag. That's insane, right,

333
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:42.599
that's so humanizing, Yeah, m hm, And like it's not

334
00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:45.680
it's not wrong to tell like you should be able to,

335
00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:48.240
you know, say, if someone's being racist, you should be

336
00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:51.039
able to call them out right, and so no matter

337
00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:56.519
who they are writing a judge. So Martin represented himself,

338
00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.240
but he had no time to prepare for trial because

339
00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:01.720
when he was a hearing for what he thought was

340
00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:06.160
a request for a reduction in Bell, so emotion hearing

341
00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.920
requesting a reduction in Bell. The judge denied their request

342
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:14.000
and then immediately started the trial, which seems hell, not right.

343
00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.680
It seems that seems illegal. Yeah, what is that thing

344
00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:22.359
where you have a right to like a full process, right,

345
00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:25.559
This seems like they're skipping steps right. And then an

346
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.799
all white jury found him guilty and the judge sentenced

347
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:33.599
Martin to thirty to forty one years in prison, which

348
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:37.559
was disproportionate to the crime. Wow, it all gets worse.

349
00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:43.039
The same judge, judge Frederick Marshall, later sentenced another black

350
00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:46.119
man to a five to fifteen year sentence were stabbing

351
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:50.359
and killing his wife. And mind you, the charges that

352
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.480
were actually brought to court it was the selling the drugs.

353
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:58.400
And I think there was one more, oh know that

354
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.519
was it the sell of narcotics. Yeah, that was it.

355
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:03.759
That was the only charge. So thirty to forty one

356
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:10.200
years for a supposed or a leged fifteen dollars dollar yeah,

357
00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:16.039
heroin Cell's. And then the same judge turned around and

358
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:20.720
sentenced another black man for killing his wife five to

359
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:25.920
fifteen years, five to fifteen years. Yeah. So I mean

360
00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:30.440
it was clear that, like the legal and like law enforcement,

361
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:33.799
there's a clear bias going on here. Yeah. They already

362
00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:37.319
didn't like Martin, and in the years that followed, Martin

363
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:40.640
was put in solitary confinement for various reasons, and he

364
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.759
was transferred to different prisons as punishment too. So I

365
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.839
wasn't super clear on timelines because I saw different timelines

366
00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:48.920
from the documentary and then the article that I read.

367
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.079
So in March or June nineteen sixty eight, Martin was

368
00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:56.279
sent to solitary confinement after trying to mail a letter

369
00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:59.880
to his attorney which included a motion for a change

370
00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.839
venue for Geraldine, the woman you know he worked with,

371
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:05.279
who was also arrested. Oh my god, look at him

372
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:09.200
trying to sign up for his people, even behind ours. Yeah.

373
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.119
But to the warden, this was Martin practicing law without

374
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:15.640
a license, and he sent Martin to solitary. In total,

375
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:20.480
Martin spent six years in solitary for things like starting

376
00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:24.559
a labor union at the prison license plate shop, refusing

377
00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:27.079
to shave his beard, and refusing to submit to a

378
00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.880
rectal exam because he and of course he viewed this

379
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:35.079
as a form of dehumanization, right, which very much is. Yes.

380
00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:38.960
And then along with solitary confinement, Martin was often beaten

381
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:41.640
by the prison guards, and after one of those beatings,

382
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.759
Martin ended up being charged with assaulting the guards and

383
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.000
four more years were added to a sentence. And that

384
00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:51.880
is a prime example of why the prison system is

385
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.440
so I mean, amo among many examples, but so corrupt

386
00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:58.640
because once you're in there, they could just keep adding

387
00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:00.720
random things that are not even and like, oh you

388
00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.759
did this, more charges, more charges. So yeah, I'm not

389
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:08.519
at all surprised by this. But still, of course it's

390
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:14.359
infuriating because yeah, it's a story that has gone happened

391
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.480
too many times. Yeah, And when Martin was offered an

392
00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.920
opportunity to reduce his solitary time by participating in group therapy,

393
00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:27.559
he refused because this group quote group therapy was facilitated

394
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.279
by the prison guards, who only received one week of training,

395
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.440
So it's not even real, Like, why would you participate? Yeah,

396
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.440
besides them having no actual training in therapy, how would

397
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:42.000
a prisoner ever feel comfortable and ever build rapport and

398
00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:46.799
trust with the prison guard Like that's ridiculous. Yeah. In fact,

399
00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:50.400
if anything, they could just use whatever against the mission

400
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:53.480
they obtained their Yeah, yeah, huh. Yeah, And Martin continued

401
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:56.799
to fight his conviction, filing motion after motion to novel

402
00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:00.400
three years after the trial. Ardo, the key and is,

403
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:04.119
who had a substance dependency issue and reported buying heroin

404
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.160
from Martin, was in drug rehab and then he recounted

405
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:10.880
his testimony. Ardo admitted in an affidavit that a detective

406
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:13.279
asked him if Martin sold him drugs when he was

407
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.440
in jail, and he said yes, because he wanted to

408
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.960
get out of jail. So Ardo was in jail, he

409
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:21.880
was dependent on drugs. In other words, people call this

410
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:26.279
an addiction, right, a drug addict, But I don't know,

411
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:29.839
it's we're kind of moving away from trumps like that, right, right,

412
00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:35.240
And you're the pioneer of change, so exactly, yes, we'll

413
00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:41.000
use these words. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, he was dependent

414
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:46.720
on substances. He was in jail. For drugs, and a

415
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:50.440
police officer approached him and said, hey, is Martin selling drugs?

416
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:54.440
And then he's like, yes, get me out of jail now. Yeah,

417
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:57.839
what kind of you know invisation? Is that? No, they

418
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:02.200
were looking for the leading question. Yes, yeah, yeah, so

419
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:06.480
he admitted. Ardo admitted that the police gave him fifteen

420
00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:08.880
dollars and marked bills so then they would know that

421
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.799
this was spright the fifteen dollars that was used for

422
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:16.000
that transaction. So they gave Ardo fifteen dollars and marked

423
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:19.720
bills to buy drugs from Martin. He also admitted that

424
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:23.319
the heroine he supposedly bought from Martin was already in

425
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:25.599
his pocket from earlier that day when he bought it

426
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:29.200
for himself earlier that day from someone else. Right. And

427
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:31.720
the only thing, which is why Martin was saying like

428
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:34.400
I was only holding this money for him, is because

429
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:37.960
that's all that he asked him to do, because he

430
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:42.400
didn't he'd buy drugs from him, right, he already had them. Yeah,

431
00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:45.039
this was brought to the court and everything, but a

432
00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.559
federal judge did not find Ardo credible and he denied

433
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:51.640
Martin a new trial. I feel like that goes both ways.

434
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:53.680
If he was incredible, to believe him, Now, why would

435
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:56.319
he be why would he have been the place? Yeah, Like,

436
00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:58.519
how can you say that? They're just like picking and

437
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:03.240
choosing shit? And that is the judicial and prison system

438
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:08.240
in the United States exactly. Another witness testimony was also

439
00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:12.119
found to be questionable. So a photographer for the Buffalo

440
00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:15.720
Police reported viewing the exchange of money and drugs between

441
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:19.599
Martin and Ardo from eighty feet away from the upstairs

442
00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:24.960
building in front of the bookstore. So across there, okay, upstairs, upstairs, Yeah,

443
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:29.079
eighty seed away. He saw this exchange. Does bitch better

444
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:34.680
have had binoculars? And when asked if he took pictures

445
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:37.559
of this exchange, the photographer said he forgot to load

446
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:43.400
his camera. How convenient, right, So Martin did not get

447
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:46.359
another chance at a new trial until a prisoner advocate

448
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.039
cross paths with the first black woman appointed as a

449
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:53.359
federal judge. And this visionary judge was US District Court

450
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.960
Judge Constance Baker Motley, and she rose in the legal

451
00:27:57.039 --> 00:27:59.640
ranks during the Civil Rights movement as a lawyer for

452
00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:03.599
the AACP. And she was the first black woman to

453
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:06.960
argue before the Supreme Court in Brown v Board of Education.

454
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:09.400
Oh my god, Yeah, this isn't telling you like I

455
00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:11.680
love learning about this, Like this was like such a

456
00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:14.400
fun thing to research for me. I love when things

457
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:19.559
connect to other things, yes, like other historical you know, time,

458
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:23.480
historical multiverse. Yes, yes, And you know that we come

459
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:26.920
across that so much, we really do. And I love

460
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:31.640
it every single time. Everything is connected, everything everywhere, all

461
00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:33.559
that once. Oh my god, So I don't watch that.

462
00:28:35.079 --> 00:28:40.000
What I watched that? Oh my god. It's my favorite

463
00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:43.640
movie ever done. It changed my life. In July nineteen

464
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:48.279
sixty nine, Judge Baker Motley ordered Martin to be immediately

465
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:51.920
released from solitary confinement, and the following year she held

466
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.480
a trial from Martin in Saucetree v. Rockefeller, and she

467
00:28:55.519 --> 00:28:59.079
made a ruling about the conditions of Martin's solitary confinement,

468
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:03.720
a ruling in Martin's favor. Judge Baker Motley ruled that

469
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:07.400
Martin was punished because of his legal and political activities

470
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.519
and beliefs, and not because of any infractions, which, of course,

471
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:17.200
and she further ruled that Martin's confinement was physically harsh,

472
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:20.880
destructive of morale, dehumanizing in the sense that it is

473
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:24.920
needlessly degrading and dangerous to the maintenance of sanity and

474
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:27.799
should not exceed fifteen days. So she made a ruling

475
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:32.599
that solitary confinement should not exceed fifteen days. And that's

476
00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:36.720
still like held today. Not really, I mean it's supposed

477
00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:40.160
to be followed in some places. Yeah, but yeah, I

478
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:44.799
mean it's the precedent, right. This ruling paved the way

479
00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:48.599
for the continued fight against solitary confinement, and there's a

480
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:50.240
lot more. And that's when I read about that it's

481
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:52.559
still not really followed in some places, that the people

482
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:56.079
are still fighting for this to be followed, okay, and

483
00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:00.759
that you know, fight against solitary confinement. The larger fight

484
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:07.000
for either prison reform or abolition continues, right. The judge

485
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:11.359
also awarded Martin compensatory damages for each day he was

486
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:16.920
in solitary and punitive damages. So like I forgot and

487
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.599
write down the amount of money. But of course, no

488
00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:22.799
amount of money, you know, can make up for everything. Yeah, however,

489
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:27.240
hopefully it helps a little bit. Yeah. The prison guards

490
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:30.559
responded to Martin's victory by trying to pit the white

491
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.400
prisoners against the black ones and trying to incite a

492
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:37.079
race riot. Oh my god. But it didn't work. It

493
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:40.319
didn't work because the white prisoners acknowledge that Martin's victory

494
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:44.160
was also their victory because they were also not going

495
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:47.599
to be sent to solitary for no reason and for

496
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:50.559
more than fifteen days at a time. So they were like, nah, no,

497
00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:55.920
we're good. Yeah, we're all winning today. This also led

498
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:59.799
to further uprisings from prisoners, and so I just wanted

499
00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:02.720
to briefly talk about one of them that I read about. So, yeah,

500
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.039
the following year after this ruling, over one hundred, no

501
00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:08.960
a thousand, over a thousand prisoners in Attica. I was

502
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.200
gonna say, before you even said, Aine, is it the

503
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:14.599
Attica prison uprising? Yes, it is. Yeah, they were inspired

504
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.319
by Martin. I didn't know this. I have, I've hadn't

505
00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:23.119
read about and listened to episodes about the Attica Uprising,

506
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:25.960
but I had no idea that it's got connected to

507
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:32.160
this black Latino man. Like, yes, amazing, Brian, Right, here's

508
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:38.319
another historical multiverse thing going on. Yes, yes, so yeah, right.

509
00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:42.599
The prisoners in Attica demanded rights and better conditions, things

510
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:46.079
like better medical treatment, the right to read political newspapers,

511
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:51.000
to form labor unions, to have regular showers, basic rights. Yeah. Well,

512
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:52.920
and another thing, to have more than one a bar

513
00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:56.599
of soap and toilet paper a month, a month, a month. Yeah,

514
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:00.079
imagine only being allotted one toilet paper a month. And

515
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:03.119
yeah if for those that don't know, the Attica prison

516
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:06.359
uprising turned it deadly when the governor Rockefeller sent in

517
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:11.920
state troopers to quash it. Right. Yeah. So then finally,

518
00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:14.920
in nineteen seventy five, after Martin was moved to a

519
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:18.440
different prison due to his life being in danger because

520
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:22.160
the violence from the prison guards, a nationwide campaign to

521
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:26.440
free Martin was started by Daniel Berrigan, an activist priest.

522
00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:32.279
We love an activist priest. Yes, And I didn't write

523
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:34.480
down the new prison he was sent to, but I

524
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:37.160
guess it was an easier location for activists to visit,

525
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:42.279
and so it led this movement to gain more traction

526
00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:45.839
and stuff like that, And despite opposition from law enforcement

527
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:52.400
and prosecutors and Buffalo, the campaign gained enough traction that

528
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:56.119
on Christmas Eve of that year, nineteen seventy five, New

529
00:32:56.200 --> 00:33:01.279
York Governor Hugh Carey granted Martin executive clemency so he

530
00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:06.359
was free. He was free. Oh, amazing, truly amazing. In total,

531
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:09.400
Martin had spent about twenty years in prison, twenty years

532
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:13.240
of his life in prison with both of the sentences right,

533
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:17.200
and Martin worried that he wouldn't be able to acclimate

534
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:22.240
to civilian life after two decades of institutionalization and imprisonment,

535
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:27.799
and he said the following prison is a close society

536
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:30.640
with forty foot walls and the public can't see in.

537
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:35.359
I consider the outside only a minimum security and inside

538
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.079
prison a sort of maximum security. So in a sense

539
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:41.039
he kind of felt safer inside. And I feel like

540
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:46.240
that's such a also common sentiment between those that have

541
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:50.680
been in prison. Yeah, such a great visualization of this

542
00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:54.599
and also such a sad, sad, sad story. But when

543
00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:59.599
they see us the show on Netflix, oh my god, yes,

544
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.119
oh god, I cannot ever rewatch that one time was enough?

545
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:09.239
The thing amazing. I mean, there's the reason that Jerome won, right,

546
00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:12.679
what was it like an oscar whatever? Like actors win, right,

547
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:14.800
because I am I'm sorry, I don't ever won't remember

548
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:18.760
because he was amazing in the show. But it follows

549
00:34:18.760 --> 00:34:22.000
the case of the Central Park teenagers five, yeah, that

550
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:24.840
were accused of you know, raping and killing a woman.

551
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:29.360
And it was uh, oh, you know part Ada using

552
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:33.639
them for their imprisonments and accusing them Trump. Yes, and

553
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:36.920
this is they didn't do this at all. No complete

554
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:38.800
but yeah, in the show, you can see that they

555
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:40.840
get out and a lot of them end up back

556
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:43.239
in for different things because it's they were in for

557
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:46.639
so long. How do you when you come out the

558
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.400
system though, everything has again set up against you. Yeah. Two,

559
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:53.079
and it's set up for you to fail again basically,

560
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:55.880
and that's on purpose because the United States needs the

561
00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:59.760
free labor so right. So in February nineteen seventy six,

562
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:02.480
it took time for the clemency to be processed. I'm

563
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:05.320
not really sure. Martin finally walked out of prison and

564
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.000
became a free man. In a press conference at the

565
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:11.239
UN he held the day after his release, Martin said

566
00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:14.559
the following, I know it's fashionable to say I'm not bitter.

567
00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:18.800
Of course I am, of course, and no, absolutely, no

568
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:22.239
one can blame him for that, right, and the creation shouldn't. Right,

569
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:25.119
And the quote goes on, I lost the nine years

570
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:28.320
of my life. I'm a human being, I'm bitter. This

571
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.440
sort of thing goes on in a so called humane society.

572
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:34.159
And so yeah, this last sentence was nine years, and

573
00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:36.360
the one before that was I think of almost ten,

574
00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:40.559
so right, for a total of almost twenty. So Martin

575
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:43.840
continued his activism after being released, and he organized with

576
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:47.440
fellow tenants against bad landlords, and he also set up

577
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:51.119
daycares and after school programs in his community. That's beautiful,

578
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:55.440
Oh my god. Yeah. Describing his work as a housing

579
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:58.960
tenant advocate, Martin said, the battlefield has changed from the

580
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:01.599
dungeon to the street, but the repression is the same.

581
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:04.840
Is that cool? So why is god? Yeah? And you

582
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:06.760
know what, like, I don't know, I'm going to send

583
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:09.320
pictures of him and post them, but he just looks cool.

584
00:36:11.079 --> 00:36:14.920
Despite his activism, Martin constantly worried that his freedom would

585
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.599
be taken from him at any second, and that he

586
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:20.000
would be sent back to prison for any reason. And

587
00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:22.880
this was a valid concern because some conditions of his

588
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:28.400
parole were vague and just completely up to interpretation. For example,

589
00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:32.960
one condition of his parole stated that Martin's behavior would

590
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:35.880
not be a menace to society. What kind of shit

591
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:40.000
is that? I know who defines what that means? And

592
00:36:40.039 --> 00:36:44.760
so yeah, Martin worried that expressing criticism of the government

593
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:47.480
and the prison system could be interpreted as the behavior

594
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:52.000
that's menacing to society. Mm hmm. And then other terms

595
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.159
of his parole included him not being able to marry,

596
00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:58.320
to buy a car, or to go his job without

597
00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:05.039
obtaining permission of his parole officer. So talk about dehumanizing. Wow.

598
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:08.719
So yeah, Martin continued his activism, but sometimes it was

599
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:11.960
difficult for him to work with others and he preferred

600
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.639
and was used to doing things alone, especially because all

601
00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:18.480
the time he spent in solitary confinement. Right. Martin met

602
00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:21.400
his wife, Philz through her own prison reform work, and

603
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:24.239
the pair went on to have two sons, Mark and Vinnie.

604
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:27.639
At one point there were talks with James Earl Jones

605
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:30.519
of a TV movie being made of Martin's life, but

606
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:34.639
that fell through when Martin and James said no because

607
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:37.199
they felt like the writers were watering down the story

608
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:41.960
too much. And along with organizing and renters, Martin also

609
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:45.440
formed a block association. So this is when renters from

610
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:49.119
different buildings on the same block formed together, like kind

611
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:52.280
of like a you know, union or whatever. Yeah, and

612
00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:55.159
he also bought abandoned buildings with a friend in New

613
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:58.960
Jersey and taught teens how to do construction. Oh my god,

614
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:04.039
who has time and I don't believe it right Through

615
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:06.280
the same program, he also started a daycare anters to

616
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:08.159
a program, and I think that's the one I mentioned earlier.

617
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:12.679
It was program. In nineteen eighty four, Martin was once

618
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:15.719
again thrown into the clause of the criminal justice system

619
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:19.079
when he shot a man in self defense. So what

620
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.760
happened was that Martin was evicting a tenant from a

621
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:26.199
building he was managing when the man and his friend,

622
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:29.159
who had a gun, threatened him. So the man and

623
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:33.280
the man's friend threatened Martin with the gun, and Martin

624
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:36.320
then grabbed a gun and it went off, shooting the tenant,

625
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:40.400
who suffered from a superficial neck wound. So Martin was

626
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:43.000
charged with attempted murder, and in fear that he would

627
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:44.760
be killed in prison, that he would be sent back

628
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:47.960
and killed in prison due to his prison reform advocacy work,

629
00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:50.719
he fled New York. He didn't feel like he would

630
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:53.760
get a fair trial and all that, so there's no way,

631
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:58.159
so he fled, basically becoming a fugitive. Martin hid in Florida,

632
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:01.199
while his wife, Liz was left care for their sons alone,

633
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:06.199
and Liz and the boys often visited Martin, and one

634
00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:08.519
time they even went to Disney World while he was

635
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:16.280
technically a fugitive. Oh god, honestly love that for them. Yeah,

636
00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:18.440
so two years went by like this, So she would

637
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.599
sneak out and she would sneak out of their apartment

638
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:23.960
with like the kids like in hiding bags, Like they

639
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:26.079
would hide themselves to sneak out to visit him because

640
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.800
they were afraid that the cops are following them, which

641
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:32.400
could be true. Yeah. So yeah, two years went by

642
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:37.480
and then Martin visited New York and he was caught

643
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:44.480
visiting one of his favorite places, a law library. But yeah,

644
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:47.920
I mean at trial, he represented himself and he was acquitted.

645
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:54.000
Oh my god, that's amazing. Yeah. So Martin lived until

646
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:56.760
the age of ninety two, when his health had been

647
00:39:56.840 --> 00:40:00.960
declining for a few years after suffering from a series

648
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:04.199
of strokes. In the later years of his life, he

649
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:07.920
spoke less about his time in prison, although his sons

650
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:10.719
said that he was always talking about politics and current events.

651
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:14.400
And of course, right, I mean, like I feel like

652
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:16.760
you never really let that go if that's how you

653
00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:21.039
you know, grew up live and yeah, lived basically. Yeah.

654
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:25.440
Martin even left any letters from journalists and academics unopened

655
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:28.079
in a pile because he felt like that part of

656
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:30.239
his life was in the past. But he always responded

657
00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:33.679
to inmates that he knew in prison. Oh and he

658
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:38.480
passed away on August twelfth, twenty fifteen, with no media attention.

659
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:42.039
But anyone who's an anti prison in industrial complex, you know,

660
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:47.599
person should know his name. Yeah. I saw this quote

661
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:49.519
from the article that I read that I want to share,

662
00:40:49.719 --> 00:40:53.280
and it's from a historian. No single figure played a

663
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:56.880
greater role in securing illegal rights for prisoners in the

664
00:40:56.920 --> 00:41:02.119
history of US prisons than Martin sastry Man. That's so true.

665
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:06.360
So I just yeah, wow, Yeah, it was truly in

666
00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:08.800
awe of Martin when I was reading, seriously, like he

667
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.559
just never stopped working. Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm amazed because

668
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:16.960
not only obviously the prison you know, reformed stuff that

669
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:19.599
he did, like you know, the Salagia confinements, that enough

670
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:26.719
for himself, but daycares renters right like a ninety two.

671
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:29.800
That's that's a lot of long, long life. So I'm

672
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:33.079
just glad that he after he was able to after

673
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.920
he was released from prison. He lived a long life. Yeah,

674
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:42.639
long fulfilling life. Seriously. The Martin Sastry Institute still maintains

675
00:41:42.679 --> 00:41:45.599
a website that includes an archive of his writings and

676
00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:48.480
pictures and films about him. So and that'll be linked

677
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:52.360
in the sources. So cool website to check out. Cool

678
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:57.639
and Yeah that's Martin Sastry, Martin Ramirez Saustry. Wow, seriously,

679
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:01.199
thank you for sharing his story because I did not

680
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:03.960
know about him. Yeah. No, and huge shout out to

681
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:08.119
I follow working class history. I think it is. Oh yes,

682
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:12.320
I linked included the link in those sources. Okay, people

683
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:14.400
can see that, But that's how I found out about him.

684
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:18.960
That's a great wealth of information there too. Yeah. Wow. Yeah,

685
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:21.960
I'm just I'm just amazed that there's just, you know,

686
00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:24.840
people out here that had did so much and like

687
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:27.480
I had no idea about them. Yeah, that's why we

688
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:35.079
have this podcast so exactly exactly. Oh man. Also, I

689
00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:38.480
know we don't really do recommendations here, but I did

690
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:42.239
just read, or I finished recently, the Killers of the

691
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:47.880
Flower Moon book and it was amazing. I accidentally, actually

692
00:42:48.039 --> 00:42:51.000
not accidentally, but my library apparently only has the version

693
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:57.639
that's adopted for young readers. I didn't realize this. I didn't.

694
00:42:57.679 --> 00:42:59.639
That's fine, I didn't. It's a sense that it was

695
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:03.480
for younger readers. When I was reading it, it was

696
00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:06.159
like a regular book, but I don't know. It comes

697
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:10.639
with a glossary and like an index of like all

698
00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:13.480
the people. So I'm like, okay, maybe that's why I

699
00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:17.519
didn't have trouble, Like I didn't need those things. But

700
00:43:17.559 --> 00:43:19.559
I don't know if it's maybe it's shorter and includes

701
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:23.480
those or what. Maybe maybe it's like an abridge. Yeah,

702
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:26.280
so I'm gonna look for the regular version. But it

703
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:30.599
was still good, honestly, No, I'm sure, And it makes

704
00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:32.440
me want to watch the movie. But it's only on

705
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:37.519
Apple TV, so that suns. Yeah, but you know a

706
00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:41.320
lot of because basically this is a true true crime book.

707
00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:44.920
But a lot of true crime books the reason I

708
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:48.320
sometimes don't like reading them is because they're too pro

709
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:52.840
I guess, like hop yes, which is the case with

710
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:56.280
a lot of even like yeah, any type of true

711
00:43:56.280 --> 00:44:01.639
crime media, right right, But this book focused on the

712
00:44:02.599 --> 00:44:07.079
like historical injustice against indigenous people, the bias that the

713
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:12.280
law enforcement and judicial system had and it's it's so

714
00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:15.280
much worse than I thought, like, and I remember, actually

715
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:19.159
I listened to an episode about this, The Killers of

716
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:22.280
the Flower Moon from I think I told you about

717
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:24.400
the podcast before, but I want to relisten now that

718
00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:26.480
I read the book and have a clear understanding of

719
00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:31.280
who's who. But I listened to hold on, let me

720
00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:34.280
look for it. Yeah, because I don't remember having this

721
00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:37.719
conversation where you told me about something like this, a

722
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:43.960
podcast about indigenous like folklore, myth scary stories. It is

723
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:51.360
nightmares of the Americas, that colon thing indigenous tells. Okay,

724
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:53.920
I don't remember this, you know. Well. Yeah, so I

725
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:56.320
listened to a few I've and I'm like kind of

726
00:44:56.360 --> 00:45:01.719
behind on podcast, so I have I listened in a while.

727
00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:05.800
But yeah, so they have one, two, three, four parter

728
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:10.599
on this, so I'm gonna re listen to those now

729
00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:13.480
that I know a little bit more. Yes, yes, I'll

730
00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:16.039
have to check that out. They also had an episode

731
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:18.400
on they do some Latin American because you know, it's

732
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:20.599
kind of a lot of the Latin American one comes

733
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:23.960
from Latin American indigenous indigenous people. Yeah, and they had

734
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:27.199
an episode on the other was more those two. Okay, okay,

735
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:29.880
I'll have to check this out. I want to relisten

736
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:31.800
to those because they, you know, have their four partner.

737
00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:35.039
And then I'm going to look for the regular version

738
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:38.679
of the book someday when I visit my friend again

739
00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:42.079
who has Apple TV. I'm gonna watch it with her.

740
00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:46.079
And I mean the movie, you know, award winning but

741
00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:51.800
the Gladstone. Yeah, like i'd watch it for her alone,

742
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:54.320
for the women in the movie. Did you watch Under

743
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:57.239
the Bridge? Yeah? No, I still need to. I forgot

744
00:45:57.280 --> 00:45:59.239
what it was called. And then I kept forgetting to

745
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:03.639
ask she was amazing and that I bet, I bet, Well,

746
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:05.280
there's something else I was going to say. Oh, and

747
00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:12.599
then that in the intro of the book, a person

748
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:18.360
I think his family was also like, he's a member

749
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:21.000
of that tribe. The reason I'm not pronouncing it is

750
00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:24.199
because I can't remember how it's pronounced assage or a sage.

751
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:26.400
I don't know how to pronounce stage. Oh, sage, Okay,

752
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:30.679
thank you. So I want to say he was or

753
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:34.960
is a member of the tribe. Yeah, he is, because

754
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:39.440
he wrote his own book and it's referenced in the

755
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:42.320
in his intro to clar Killers of Flower Moon but

756
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:45.559
also at the end of the book the author talks

757
00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:48.039
about like what sources he use and all that, and

758
00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:53.960
so his book is on there. So that's on my TBR. Now.

759
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:57.559
So that book is called The Deaths The Deaths of

760
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:02.119
Sybil Bolton, Oil, Greed and Murder on the Osage Reservation

761
00:47:02.239 --> 00:47:06.239
by Dennis McAuliffe Jr. Oh, all right, I'll have to

762
00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:08.280
add it to my list too. And yeah, I mean

763
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:10.639
they completely did not shy away at all from the

764
00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:14.559
history and the you know, discrimination and the any of

765
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:18.039
good and I mean, I like knew a little bit

766
00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:20.079
of the story, but I'm telling you, like it was

767
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:25.400
so much worse than I thought. Damn. Yeah, I'll have to.

768
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:29.639
I'll have to check it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, do

769
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:35.559
we have any other Well, we should welcome any new listeners, right, yeah,

770
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:39.280
I'm welcome because I made a post on Threads just

771
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:43.519
introducing Spooky Tells and I tag these study as a

772
00:47:43.639 --> 00:47:47.280
known and a lot of people followed. Thank you people,

773
00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:51.719
And I mean, if you, I hope that make you

774
00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:55.039
listen because the obviously our podcast is so much more

775
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:59.880
and better than our Instagram because we barely post on Instagram. Yes, yeah,

776
00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:03.400
we do barely post on there. But yeah, I mean

777
00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:06.079
hopefully you know, you stick around this far. Maybe you

778
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:09.239
started on this episode. I don't know. Some people started

779
00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:13.840
the newest one, so it's weird to me. But yeah, yeah,

780
00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:18.639
and so yeah, welcome. Like I said on trends, we're twins.

781
00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:24.159
We like history and scary stories and we love to talk.

782
00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:30.199
So yeah, that's why we're here. That is why we're here. Yeah.

783
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:33.800
And then I guess one more announcement. We are finally

784
00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.880
making a Patreon. We did have this other thing that

785
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:38.760
I honestly don't know how to use, Like I don't

786
00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:41.039
know how to put different episodes up, and it was

787
00:48:41.079 --> 00:48:42.559
just I was like, I don't like this. I'm used

788
00:48:42.559 --> 00:48:44.920
to Patreon, and you know, I'm like a boomer in

789
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:49.559
that sense, and I will be stubborn about something that

790
00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:53.079
I already know how to get, which is funny because

791
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.280
it's also not true in some other aspects, because like

792
00:48:55.400 --> 00:49:05.639
I went, you taught yourself ever Yeah, but but patreon

793
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:08.239
wise is just so much simpler and easier to use

794
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:10.920
than the other thing. We I don't even it's in

795
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:15.800
LinkedIn every show notes. It's like I don't even remember

796
00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:18.599
the name of it. You know, I'm also going to

797
00:49:18.639 --> 00:49:21.559
be switching us to so that we can be and

798
00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:25.079
this doesn't mean anything to like a basic non podcast

799
00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:27.119
or listener, but I'm going to be moving as a

800
00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:30.960
speaker and it doesn't even mean anything to me exactly.

801
00:49:31.039 --> 00:49:33.519
And we're currently on Megaphone that's where we host the podcast,

802
00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:35.719
but I want to switch a speaker so we can

803
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:38.199
at least like make money off the ads out are

804
00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:41.840
being played, because there's ads in every app, sometimes not

805
00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:44.360
every episode, but yeah, that's why I want to switch

806
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:46.840
the speaker. And when I make the switch, the current

807
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:51.199
thing where we have an ad free feed that's not

808
00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:53.079
going to work anymore. I'm gonna get rid of that.

809
00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:56.039
We have one member on there and it was like

810
00:49:56.079 --> 00:49:57.960
they paid up front for the year, which was just

811
00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:01.159
like thirty dollars. But so I'm going to be getting

812
00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:03.679
rid of that, and then we're gonna be switching to Patreon.

813
00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:05.880
I am gonna put up all our episodes that are

814
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:07.320
going to be out free and then you know, new

815
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:12.239
ones moving forward. But we're also trying to hopefully bring

816
00:50:12.360 --> 00:50:14.559
back like I said, we love cheese met and we

817
00:50:14.679 --> 00:50:17.440
love to talk and what is history but old cheese men?

818
00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:23.159
Like that's what history is ancient historic cheese men? Yeah, important,

819
00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:25.760
cheat man. Cheese men is almost always important, no matter what,

820
00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:29.360
right right, right, right right. So we're gonna be doing

821
00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:33.519
on Patreon Fortia Unknown cheese Mess Unknown. I can't believe

822
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:35.519
it took us this long to think of that. You.

823
00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:37.639
I don't even it was. We're gonna cross my radar.

824
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:39.400
I was like, it was just random. I was just

825
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:42.000
thinking of nothing, and then I was like, cheez, miss Unknown,

826
00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:46.199
You're like sleepeeling you wake up. Che's mess Unknown. Almost

827
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:48.519
basically I was getting ready for bed, well that was

828
00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:50.840
I was already in bed, and then I was saying

829
00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:53.400
good night to you, and then it came to me, okay,

830
00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:57.000
and that's how a Spooky Tales came to me. So beautiful.

831
00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:00.960
So yeah, we're and we're just gonna be covering you know,

832
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:07.440
current cheese man exactly. Yeah, because we have nowhere else

833
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:11.360
to about Internet achievement. It could be political chiatment, it

834
00:51:11.400 --> 00:51:15.119
could be random cheatment. Yeah, and we tried this in

835
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:17.639
the form of a whole separate, just YouTube thing, but

836
00:51:18.039 --> 00:51:20.519
then it scared us so it was too much worth,

837
00:51:20.599 --> 00:51:24.199
too much attention and that. Yeah. Yeah, but at work,

838
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:27.800
if we do it through here. It's people that already

839
00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:33.039
like us exactly, not these weirdo randos on YouTube we're

840
00:51:33.199 --> 00:51:36.960
mad at us for samee stuff. Yeah, so it feels

841
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:39.920
a little safer. So that's going to be on here,

842
00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:44.960
and then of course our ad free episodes. And sometimes

843
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:46.599
I want to do a book club for Restoce and

844
00:51:46.599 --> 00:51:49.079
Known because we read so many books for certain episodes,

845
00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:51.199
but that's going to be further down the line. Maybe

846
00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:53.280
that would be fun, like the one I just talked

847
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:56.000
about would be cool exactly, even when I get the

848
00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:58.920
regular version of yeah, and then you like that would

849
00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:02.920
be cool. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, you know, these are

850
00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:07.920
just feature plan ideas. Yeah, so you know, exciting stuff

851
00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:12.960
coming up. Okay, I guess that brings us to the

852
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:17.559
end of the episode. So thank you everyone for listening

853
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:21.159
and we hope this was one lass yestoria unknown for you.

854
00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:23.119
Bye bye,