Jan. 8, 2026

Manuel Noriega's Right Hand Man With Cillian Dunne

Manuel Noriega's Right Hand Man With Cillian Dunne
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The CIA built him. Then they tried to erase him.Trained by Mossad, the DEA, and Fidel Castro’s Cuba, Carlos Wittgreen became the triple spy at the center of Panama’s shadow wars. As Manuel Noriega’s right hand, he carried secrets powerful enough to topple governments.Now, hundreds of long-hidden files have been unearthed. Once owned by Noriega and hidden for decades, these documents, combined with firsthand testimony, reveal how the United States created his regime, exploited him during the Cold War, and dismantled him when he stopped serving their interests and became volatile. This is not only the story of one American-backed dictator but the blueprint. From Latin America to the Middle East, America has built leaders, used them, and discarded them. The Right Hand Man exposes what happens when that system reaches its breaking point and why the same playbook is still in use today.

Carmen and Cristina had the opportunity to chat with author Cillian Dunne about his new book, the Right Hand Man.

Keep up with Cillian on social media: https://www.instagram.com/dunne.cillian/?hl=en

Get a copy of the Right Hand Man: https://a.co/d/8qrQMFy

If you have topic suggestions, feel free to email Historiasunknownpodcast@gmail.com or use the contact us form on the website https://www.historiasunknown.com/contact/

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WEBVTT

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Hi, everyone. This is Carmen and Christina and this is

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a Study Asunknown, a podcast where we talk about Latin

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American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals with heavy topics

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like racism, corruption and genocide. But more than that, it's

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also by resistance, power and community. And so today and

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today we have a special episode, we had the opportunity

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to talk with Killian Dune, the author of a new

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book called The Right hand Man. Actually no, it just

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says these words on the cover. I don't think it's

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the title. He's out here doing the work promoting this book.

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But first let's talk a little bit about Killian here.

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Killian Done It's an Irish American author focused on crime,

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intelligence and political power. He's appeared in The Sunday Times,

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The Sunday World, The Boston Globe, and The Irish Son.

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His previous nonfiction book, Dreams in Incarceration, has been taught

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in criminal justice classrooms in San Francisco State University. He

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spent a while in Panama embedded living with the former

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dictator's right hand man, that former dictator Manuel Noriega, who

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you may remember from our Invasion of Panama episode that

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we did. I want to say a year ago. I

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think it was twenty twenty two. Actually, oh, oh, way longer.

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I'm like a year ago. I'm pretty sure. I think

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you're right. And let's give the synopsis of the book.

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The CIA built him, then they tried to erase him.

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Trained by Massad the Dea and Fidel catrus Kuba, Carlos

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Wickgreen became the triple spy at the center of Banama's

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shadow wars. As Manue Nodiga's right hand he carried secrets

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powerful enough to topple governments. Now hundreds of long hidden

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files have been unearthed, once owned by Nodega and hidden

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for decades. These documents, combined with firsthand testimony, reveal how

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the United States created his regime, exploited him during the

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Cold War, and dismantled him when he stopped serving their

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interest and became volatile. This is not only the story

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of one American dictator, but the blueprint from Latin America

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to the Middle East. America has built leaders, used them,

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and discarded them. The Right hand Man exposes what happens

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when that system reaches its breaking point and why the

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same playbook is so in use today. Yes, yes, so accurate,

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so true, But yeah, this. It was a joy to

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talk with him, to hear about his work, and yeah,

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he knows the stuff. This is a story that we

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feel that all of you would enjoy because we get

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to see like more about someone we've already talked about,

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but also the person his best day. Really Yeah, I mean,

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who knows your secrets more than your bestie? No one? Yeah,

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and you'll hear it in an episode. But we talk

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about why this is such an important book coming out

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right now, like today's environment, why it connects so much.

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So yeah, we hope that you enjoyed this episode with

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Killian and go Chikau's book. Okay, so first, we're very

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excited to have you here and talk because this book

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sounds awesome. I just got it last night, so I

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haven't started reading it yet, but it sounds like, yeah,

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exactly what our listeners would like, right up our alley. Yeah, yes,

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right up our alley. I will say this podcast might

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be a little different than others where our listeners are

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already a little familiar with Manuel nor Diega and like

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the School of Americas and the US involvement in Panama,

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because we did a whole series on the Panama Canal

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on top of that, But for anyone listening for like

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the first time, maybe who is Manuel nor Diega, Like,

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how would you describe him?

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Yeah? No, And thank you for saying that too. It's funny.

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I've been going on like a few podcasts to speak

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about this, and the vast already people either have no

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idea who he is or the little that they do

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know is it's like a really construed view. It's like,

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you know, it's unfair people sort of they really vilify

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him and they put him in the same boxes like

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a Pablo Escobar. And I like to sort of say

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that he was a lot more ideological than people would

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would realize.

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It's not so much to.

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Do with, you know, with like the US invasion of

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Panada and whatnot, but to explain who Noriega was. Noriega,

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in a sense was the most important intelligence asset for

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the United States government and the CIA for decades, starting

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in the mid nineteen fifties, where he was essentially hand

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selected from the military school that he attended in perutary

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or military school, right up until nineteen like eight eighty six,

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eighty seven, when the Iran contra affair sort of spilled

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into into public media so Noriega was, you know, he

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was the most important intelligence asset for a long time.

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And then on top of that, he was the de

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facto leader of Panama between nineteen eighty three and nineteen

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eighty nine, and prior to that, he was like the

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right hand man of the previous de facto leader of

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Panama or my Tori host from nineteen sixty nine to

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nineteen eighty one. So he was, you know, domestically undoubtedly

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super important to Panama and sort of where they are

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today and especially where they came from after the coup

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of nineteen sixty eight. And then as well as that,

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you know, a friend of the United States, you could.

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Say yes, And before starting to work on this book,

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how much did you know about any like Panama man

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or Noriega? And I had no idea about his like

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right hand man either, so this is all new, But like,

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how much did you know before you started to work

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on this I.

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Christina, I knew absolutely nothing. I will I'll be so honest.

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I was like, I really was blind going into it.

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I you know, when when you start reading the book,

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and thank you so much for buying it, by the way,

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but when you started in the book, you'll see that

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I'm really honest in my introduction, and I say that

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I knew nothing.

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I'd just written a book.

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So I used to live in Los Angeles, and while

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I was there, I met a former crip, a former

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gang member from said central Los Angeles, and I wrote

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what it was essentially a prison book where I interviewed

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a lot of bloods and crips and people who had

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committed murder and sort of atrocities. And a friend down

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to Parliament, an American friend, he had heard about that

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book and essentially just said, would you like to, you know,

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would you like to meet all these people that have

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access to the story about the truth.

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Behind the roy's rule and fall of Noriega.

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And I kind of knew who Noriega was, just in passing,

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just because I'm like a little bit of a history nerd.

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But I knew nothing, you know, I really knew nothing,

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And I flew down blind. I was sort of desperate

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for a really good story. And then when I got there,

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I immediately realized that I was like deeply embedded with

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the what's left of the Inner regime anyway, at least

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the people who were on more so on Noriega's side

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than the people who sort of flipped and ended up

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testifying against the more working with the CIA directly.

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Man, that's wild, and it's it's very interesting because you're

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we saw quotes about your other book, like you talking

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about it. We haven't read it, but my planed to

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it sounds really interesting. It does sound very interesting. But

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you bring like a very i don't know, nuanced different

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take than what other people bring to like when they

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think about criminals or like, oh that's all they see,

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but you bring like a different view to it where

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you're like, I don't know, humanizing them in this system.

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And so it feels like you brought the same feeling

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to this book about no Dea Gay's the right handed

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man totally.

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That's that's a great way to put it.

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Yeah, because he and I mean he is he in

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the odes of the United States government.

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He's a criminal.

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I mean he was convicted of three crimes in the

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US court and he's not even an American citizen.

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Like how crazy is that?

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Like that's that's pretty nuts, you know if you really

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just look at it.

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Right.

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Yeah, also very not does it have to do with

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this book, And it's very interesting who was recently pardoned by

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the US for almost the same type of crimes Nordega

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was himself in prison for.

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Yeah, it's very interesting.

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Now I don't really know much about that guy, but

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I'm sure because I look at your in I you know,

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keep track of your Instagram and what you guys talk

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about and everything that's happening in Venezuela right now, I

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see so many parallels to what to what happened in

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Panama in the nineteen eighties. I mean, it's and this

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is just one case, you know, one case of many,

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So I'll say it. Unfortunately, it's like good timing for

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the book because it's it's a such it's such an

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in your face example of US intervention in Latin America

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that that like, it's just like it's on the news

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twenty four to seven, you.

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Know what I mean. It's it's hard to look away from.

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So I think that the similarities between what happened with

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Noriega in Panama in the in the eighties, particularly in

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eighty eight and eighty nine, with you know, the indictment

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and the you know, drug smuggling, racketeering, money laundering charges

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or allegations against him, and then with Maduro right now,

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you know, he's got this narco trafficker like planted on

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him and accusation, yeation has planted on him, and he's

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got this fifty million dollar bounty that's what I was

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looking for on his head. And you know, the same

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thing up on Loriega. So I think it's interesting at

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the very least.

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Yeah, And really the book came out at like, unfortunately,

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a perfect time. Although sometimes it feels like these things

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never end, it's always the perfect time for a book

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like this because there's always like one thing after the other,

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and like curiously, the US is always doing this everywhere

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right right, Yeah, but who is this right hand man?

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I don't even think, Well, we were looking into the

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invasion of Panama and Manue Noordiga alone, so I don't

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even think we came across his name really, but like

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who is he? How did he become involved with Manuel Noriega?

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So yeah, he wouldn't really come across his name.

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And in a lot of places you can find you know,

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you can you can see his name come up in

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various CIA documents that are made available online.

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You can find his name in.

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Like the New York Times, LA Times and what he

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essentially was was truly just a best friend to Noriega.

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So as much as he was his right hand man,

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he was like a best friend. So Carlos's cousin married

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Noriega and they met at a family party in the

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nineteen sixties, and Noriega was like ten years older than Carlos,

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and he took Carlos under his wing in a lot

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of ways. So essentially Carlos was built by Noriega in

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a lot of ways. He I don't like saying that,

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because Carlos was a very independent man and he really

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did like that guy, really shot from the hip, like

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he was somebody who really went with his good But

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he was built by Noriega and he was taken under

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his wings. So they, you know, as much as they

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worked together for you know, the CIA and the DEA

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and all that sort of cool espionage stuff, they really

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just were best friends at the end of the day.

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So Carlos was somebody who would have like given his

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life to Noriega. And I truly believe that in any way,

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shape or form, And I think that and when you

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get to it, I don't want to spoil it. But

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at the very end of the book, Carlos reounts a

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story from the time of the US invasion of Panama,

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and I sensed a lot of regret that Carlos actually

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didn't give his life to Noriega. I sensed that he

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actually wished that he had died to protect you re sure, well,

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loyalty is really fierce and h and yeah, as much

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00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:24.879
as it was a job, it was sort of just

223
00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:27.240
like it was almost like a vocation, you know. It

224
00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:29.159
was almost like he was like meant to do it,

225
00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:30.320
or at least that's how he saw.

226
00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:31.080
Wow.

227
00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:34.279
And so we we know Manoel nor Diega went to

228
00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:37.440
this military school and Puru and the School of Americas.

229
00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:40.159
Did his right hand man Carlos. Did he have the

230
00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:42.519
same kind of training too? I know you in your

231
00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:46.159
book he did some stuff with like Masad and the CA.

232
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:47.559
But did he have the same like.

233
00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.120
Background, Not necessarily so.

234
00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:54.200
Noriega Mariego was a little bit older than Carlos, but

235
00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:57.159
he was also from a different area, and I think

236
00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:59.799
Carlos would have Carlos would have growne up with more

237
00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:03.639
ability in his family. I believe Noriega's mother was a prostitute,

238
00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:05.200
and I don't know if his dad was in the picture.

239
00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:10.879
So Noriega was somebody who excelled despite his environment. Carlos

240
00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:13.799
was raised in an environment with love, and I know

241
00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:17.360
that for a fact. He grew up differently to Noriega.

242
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:19.679
So there was a little bit of a different drive

243
00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:23.000
where I believe that Carlos was a little bit more

244
00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:25.879
maybe like as he grew a little bit older, I

245
00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:27.720
think he was a little bit more reckless, and I

246
00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:30.240
think Noriega was the one to tame him. I don't

247
00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:32.480
know if it was school that did that, because Carlos

248
00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:35.600
never spoke about Carlos never went to like a military school,

249
00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:40.039
but he did join like the Panama National Guard, and

250
00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:43.399
then from there like that that sort of like leapt

251
00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.039
into him being chosen to go to Israel and have

252
00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:48.159
this training and then to go to Washington, d c.

253
00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:51.240
And train with the DEA, Like the newly formed DEA.

254
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:53.600
He was like one of the first foreign agents or

255
00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:57.080
foreign assets for the DNA in the early nineteen seventies,

256
00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.159
So he I mean a lot of its timing, but

257
00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:01.240
he really was taking under Noriega's wing, and with the

258
00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:05.639
Noriega Carlos more than likely wouldn't have had access to

259
00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:07.399
all these people in places.

260
00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:10.080
Okay, I see, because yeah, he was the one with

261
00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:12.840
the connections because Noyaga himself, he'd been like a long

262
00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:18.039
time person with the US. Like I forgot how much

263
00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:22.559
we had talked about him in our original episode about Banama.

264
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:27.360
But yeah, he was like doing work for the US,

265
00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:32.440
like infiltrating leftist youth organizations in Panama, and like I

266
00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:34.720
think not even just Banama, I think like all of

267
00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:36.639
at Central America.

268
00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.919
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he he was like the most important

269
00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:43.960
guy for a really long time.

270
00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:50.440
For decades until he wasn't yeah, until until he said no,

271
00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:54.440
until he told until he told the US no.

272
00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:58.360
In h I believe it was nineteen eighty four, and

273
00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:00.879
then ship ready hit the phone and uh and then

274
00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:04.159
the Aar and Country affair happened, and Noriega just like

275
00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:08.440
instantly became super vilified. He became like a mega escapegoat

276
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:10.639
and it was only a matter of time before they

277
00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:11.279
took him out.

278
00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:15.919
Yeah yeah, because he oh yeah, he was killed during

279
00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:18.799
that invasion. And so then obviously I haven't read the book,

280
00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:20.480
but just by what you said earlier, I think we

281
00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:26.080
can guess what then Carlos was not able to be

282
00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.080
around because yeah, then he would have been. Yeah, so

283
00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:32.240
it doesn't spoil your book, but I see how.

284
00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:37.360
Yes, yeah, he didn't die during the invasion. He was

285
00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:43.799
because the l Yeah he's for getting Yeah, he was caught, Carlos.

286
00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:45.639
The reason why he can keep it in or keep

287
00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:46.480
it out, whatever you prefer.

288
00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:49.960
But the reason why Carlos wasn't in Panama during the

289
00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:53.039
invasion was because his son got into an accident at

290
00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:56.759
school in Switzerland. So like like a week prior so,

291
00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:59.879
Carlos flew out to Switzerland with his wife at the

292
00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:02.600
to be with his son. And while he was there,

293
00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:08.240
the the invasion broke out and Carlos was Carlos was

294
00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.960
like an international criminal sort of at this time. He

295
00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.720
told me that Interpol had like a red notice out

296
00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:15.559
on him, so there was basically like a war.

297
00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:17.759
I wasn't even able to go to Switzerland, I.

298
00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:20.360
Know, right, but he got caught volumes in Europe, Like

299
00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:22.399
he got caught like while he was there. Okay, they

300
00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:24.559
put him in cuffs and he never made it back

301
00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:26.759
to Panama. But that's part of the reason why he

302
00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.200
really regrets it. He was, you know, he basically was

303
00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:32.519
like I wish I was there in the invasion, like

304
00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.279
and I would have laid down my life. And all

305
00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:37.919
of Carlos's children told me sort of a similar story.

306
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:40.440
They were like they were like, if you know, if

307
00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:42.639
my dad was there during the invasion, like he would

308
00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:44.440
have been fighting them off with like a machine gun,

309
00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:45.720
and he would have gone down.

310
00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:47.240
Swinging like it without a doubt.

311
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.879
And they're basically like thankful for how things turned out, obviously,

312
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:53.919
because they were like, you know, my dad right right

313
00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:56.759
by during the invasion, he just got like he basically

314
00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:58.919
got whisked away at the last second.

315
00:15:59.639 --> 00:15:59.879
Man.

316
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:01.919
Yeah, and I'm sure like that would have been like

317
00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:05.039
the most honorable, honorable thing for him to do and

318
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:06.600
like in his own mind. But yeah, at least he,

319
00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:09.679
you know, for whatever type of person he was, at

320
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:11.080
least he got to live and like be with this,

321
00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:16.879
you know. Yeah, yeah, grow old. Were you when you

322
00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:21.200
were there, were you like like living with him or

323
00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:23.720
just like like in close like proximity.

324
00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:24.679
With him, or no, I was.

325
00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:27.000
I was living with him directly for a little for

326
00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:28.720
at least a couple of months of it.

327
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:32.360
And we we sort of different.

328
00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:34.960
We we had different locations for interviews, but we we

329
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:38.320
changed it up and diversified, like the locations quite a bit,

330
00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:42.200
like from world to urban, like where lots of people

331
00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:44.759
will be around for the for the interviews, or whether

332
00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:46.120
it was just Carlos and I.

333
00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:48.600
So it changed all the time. But I was there.

334
00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:49.879
My first time there.

335
00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:53.320
We went to like a world beach house, and you know,

336
00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:55.639
we spent like a few weeks together, and it was

337
00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:57.919
supposed to be longer, but the country like broke out

338
00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:02.159
into civil unrest and like the highways were blocked protesters

339
00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:05.000
and like all this crazy stuff, so that like broke

340
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:07.960
it up. And then after that I sort of had

341
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:09.720
to like come and go a few times.

342
00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:12.039
And sometimes when I came.

343
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:14.240
And stayed in Panama, I would stay in his apartment

344
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.119
with like his you know, him and his girlfriend lived

345
00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:20.559
in this apartment in the city, and I would stay

346
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:21.440
in like the guest room.

347
00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:23.480
And I was basically around in like twenty four to seven.

348
00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:27.359
But I yeah, I mean it was I'm thankful for

349
00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:28.519
it because I got.

350
00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:30.119
To interview him like literally all the time.

351
00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.240
I got to see him at like every sort of

352
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:34.519
time of day, and when he was super tired or

353
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:38.000
super energetic, like I it's hard to like fake, it's

354
00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.160
hard to like sort of fake things when you're when

355
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:42.400
you're under the microscope like that. And that's why he

356
00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:45.119
liked having me there all the time too, because he

357
00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:46.880
was like, you know, I don't know if I can

358
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:51.240
trust this guy yet, so I want to make sure. Yeah,

359
00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:53.000
like I want to basically like have him around all

360
00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:55.000
the time and see like what he does and what

361
00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:56.720
kind of guy he is.

362
00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:58.119
So it worked there for both of us.

363
00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:02.160
I think, Yeah, while you were there, I'm sure you

364
00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:04.319
talked obviously to a lot of people, not only him,

365
00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:08.200
but what was was there like a general perception that

366
00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:11.480
of like people you spoke to, like how they in

367
00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:16.359
hindsight looking back, how they perceive now No Diega and

368
00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:18.559
his right hand man, Because I know from when we

369
00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:21.839
did the episode on the Invasion, a lot of well

370
00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:25.000
some people that were interviewed for the Human Rights Report,

371
00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:28.160
they they were like, hey, things were fine with No Diega,

372
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:30.160
and now I don't have food, I don't have a job,

373
00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:32.720
I don't have a house. So I'm like, I'm wondering

374
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:34.640
if things like are still like that.

375
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:39.000
It's yeah, it's it's something that I've tried to understand more.

376
00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.720
But I will say to this side, I was just

377
00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:43.960
in Palmer for the whole month of September, and while

378
00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:48.319
I was there, I met with a journalists from a

379
00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:51.400
newspaper called La Prensa, which have been around since like

380
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.119
the early I think probably in the seventies, but they

381
00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:57.400
in the nineteen eighties No Diega like burnt down their

382
00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:00.440
headquarters three times, like they were a huge opposition in

383
00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:01.640
voice in Noriega.

384
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:05.519
And one of their journalists told me that his family

385
00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:06.119
grew up.

386
00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:10.440
In in lacho Era, which was a place that was

387
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:12.960
bombed by the US during the invasion of Partament.

388
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:15.160
It's like a really poor neighborhood and he.

389
00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:19.119
Told me that, oh, way was this, but this wasn't Altorio.

390
00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:25.720
Well, no lachor Era. It's just like little neighborhoods.

391
00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:26.799
In like Okay, I'm wondering how close it is to

392
00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:28.599
this other place that we read about.

393
00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:31.119
Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure it is, because they didn't

394
00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:33.880
bomb like a huge landmask book.

395
00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:35.680
Yeah, and it's a very a very big country to

396
00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:36.599
begin with, so.

397
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:38.240
No, definitely not.

398
00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:40.519
But anyway, his family, like it's from this really poor

399
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.000
part of the city. And he said that when they

400
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:46.640
even hear the name Noriega or when people start telling

401
00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:50.319
stories like they start crying, you know, they they're really

402
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:52.039
sort of traumatized by.

403
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:55.839
I guess, like the regime and what happened in the

404
00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:56.680
nineteen eighties.

405
00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:59.920
But as well as that, in my research for the book,

406
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:05.480
I literally have human rights reports as like my sources

407
00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:09.519
in the book from the I forget what the agency is,

408
00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:13.440
but but they're they're reports from the nineteen seventies actually

409
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:16.519
from Omar Toihost's regime, not from Noriega's.

410
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:20.960
They basically say that, like you know, everything is.

411
00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:26.519
Is fine, with the exception of the judicial system, which

412
00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:31.000
is which is flawed because all like judges, ministers, they're

413
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:33.759
all sort of appointed under military rule. There's no like

414
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:38.200
due process, and a lot of those criminals are first

415
00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:40.880
of all, they have no representation, and they're also sent

416
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:43.720
to prison without without you know, real trial, and then the.

417
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:45.759
Prisons that they go to are like horrible.

418
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.680
You know, there was there's one prison in Panama on

419
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:52.359
Koiba Island and it's like Alcatraz's times ten, you know

420
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.839
what I mean. It's like Alcatraz looks like Bali compared

421
00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:00.519
to Koiba Islands. So it's it's it's something that I

422
00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:03.319
was trying to understand as much as possible. But a

423
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.160
lot of people were doing well under the regime, for sure,

424
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:13.160
and I think that especially under Torios, the I guess

425
00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:17.440
the feeling that people had of like being almost like

426
00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:21.079
self sufficient, like being like people felt more Panamanian than

427
00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:23.519
they ever did under the rule of on our trios.

428
00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.000
You know, they didn't feel like a like a problem state,

429
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:30.440
whereas under Aega the same feeling, to my knowledge, the

430
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:33.480
same feeling existed, but it was a lot more apparent

431
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:37.680
that you were living under like an authoritarian or under

432
00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:40.839
authoritarian rule, if that makes sense. So the two were

433
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:45.119
really closely connected, because Noriega is an extension of Trios.

434
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.000
But I just think that like maybe society was a

435
00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:51.440
little bit more strangled under Noriega, where under Tereos he

436
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:53.960
was a little bit more beloved, kind of how like

437
00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:56.880
you can. And that's another comparison that I sometimes make

438
00:21:56.920 --> 00:21:59.920
between like Venezuela and Panama, because who goes.

439
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.839
Javez was pretty.

440
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:05.240
Well liked by the people right right, as Maduro is not.

441
00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:09.079
And it's because the society feels more strangled under Maduro

442
00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:13.960
than it did under Chavez, whereas you know, yeah, it's

443
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:17.039
it's it's the same thing if if you if you

444
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:19.319
sort of put it up together. But I do think

445
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:24.319
that I do think that Noriega's regime was, you know,

446
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.000
not the right thing for Panama at the time. I

447
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:29.960
you know, I can't endorse the guy by by any means.

448
00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:34.599
Yeah, yeah, but you can deliver some nuance into what

449
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:36.240
the situation was, which is what.

450
00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:38.200
This book does. Absolutely. Yeah.

451
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.480
It just provides a different narrative for a story that's

452
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:44.359
been yeah, i'll say maybe incorrectly told or told with

453
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:47.000
a bias for for decades. Like I feel like people

454
00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.079
haven't really heard the other side of the story, which

455
00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:51.920
I mean in journalism, that's just exactly what you have

456
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:54.039
to do, you know, you can't just kind of show

457
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:54.799
one perspective.

458
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:59.240
Yeah. Yeah, because I made a whenever we did our episode,

459
00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:01.680
like year or two ago, and I already forgot but

460
00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:04.599
I made a video just about the invasion of Panama alone,

461
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:07.599
but like with details that maybe other people didn't know,

462
00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:10.960
and the comments were fall of like oh, but we

463
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:13.119
went in there and we played them I don't know

464
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:15.440
these songs, and that's how it ended with It's like, Okay,

465
00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:18.279
well people died, That's what I came across and I

466
00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:20.240
was doing the research too. It was like a bunch

467
00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:24.240
of articles like who Military Power, and we played these

468
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:27.119
rock songs to lure him out and he finally gave up,

469
00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:30.079
and no mention of the hundreds of people that lost

470
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:34.000
their lives and lost their homes, like so much suffering

471
00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:36.200
from the Panemanian people that was just ignored.

472
00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:41.839
Yeah, there's an awesome documentary called Panama Deception, and it's

473
00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:45.400
directed by this lady, Barbara Trent, who she's still alive.

474
00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:47.880
I should have interviewed her when I had the chance,

475
00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:51.599
but she's hard to track down, I believe. But her

476
00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:56.000
documentary won Best Documentary at the Oscars in nineteen ninety two,

477
00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:00.319
I think so, only like two years after the version

478
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:06.240
of Panama. But anyway, in the documentary, she interviews people

479
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:10.000
that were sort of civilians that were affected most. She

480
00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:12.200
doesn't really interview that many people in the military or

481
00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:16.599
politicians or anything like that. And you know, it's kind

482
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:20.279
of apparent that a lot more people died than were reported,

483
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:22.680
you know people. I think if you look it up,

484
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:26.000
it's like it'll say somewhere in the three hundred stuff

485
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:30.920
people died. But she makes the case that several thousand

486
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:34.160
people died, like three thousand people died, and she interviewed

487
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.759
these civilians from this very poor neighborhood that you know,

488
00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:40.960
swear on their lives that they saw, you know, American

489
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:45.000
soldiers using like lasers, like testing weapons that like literally

490
00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.240
lasers on civilians. Did you read that in your research?

491
00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:51.640
I mean, there's some really wacky shit that went on.

492
00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:57.920
Yeah. I read that some figure in the US when

493
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:01.720
they were planning the invasion, and that they basically said

494
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:04.839
that they wanted to use it as a testing ground

495
00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:10.119
for new weapons. Yeah, so I think, yeah, yeah.

496
00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:11.839
Yeah, I mean yeah, I know it's horrible.

497
00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:15.640
Yeah, it's it's it's well, it's impossible for me to

498
00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:17.880
to prove. I don't think Barbera was able to do

499
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:20.319
it either. But it was all testimonials. It was basically

500
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:23.119
all just people saying that that they saw this happen.

501
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:27.359
But you know, aside from that, the the shaer, I mean,

502
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:30.960
just like the amount of artillery that the US had

503
00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:32.920
compared to you know what Panama.

504
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:33.839
I think I heard.

505
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:37.119
I interviewed a lot of you know, US military guys

506
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:40.559
while writing this book just to hear about their perspective

507
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:42.480
during the US invasion.

508
00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:45.599
Right, you want to get like all all yeah perspectives.

509
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:47.279
Yeah, I'm just going to hear what they have to say.

510
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:51.160
But but these guys were were like one guy described

511
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:53.839
the Panliama Defense Forces, which is what the National Guard

512
00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:57.599
transformed into after Noriega assumed the throne in nineteen eighty three,

513
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:02.960
he described the parliament Defense Forces as mall mall cops.

514
00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:06.000
He basically said, these guys are like mall cops compared

515
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.799
to the US military. They just wiped the floor with them,

516
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:11.359
you know what I mean. It was it was instants.

517
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:15.359
And then in no Jega's memoir, which I'm not sure

518
00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:17.400
if either of you have had the chance to read,

519
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:18.880
it's it's pretty interesting.

520
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:22.359
Yeah, yeah, he has a memoir. I think it was

521
00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:24.079
written in the mid nineteen nineties.

522
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:27.839
This guy Peter Eisner was like the interviewer and the

523
00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:31.200
whole thing is basically just transcripts, like questions and answers.

524
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:34.720
But nor Diega said in his memoir, and I guess

525
00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:36.359
like take it with a grain of salt, but he

526
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:39.839
was like, they knew where my office was, they knew

527
00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:43.000
they could have just walked right in and slapped handcuffs

528
00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:45.119
on my wrists and taken me out in there and

529
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.400
not oh, not one Panamanian soldier would have stopped them,

530
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:50.920
because that's true. I mean the up like the US

531
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:54.640
military basis on the Panama Canal were like three miles from.

532
00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:55.599
His office or something like.

533
00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:57.519
They could have gotten there in like ten minutes, but

534
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:01.160
instead they said twenty seventh the troops to bomb the

535
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:04.640
shit out of the city and to like scare people,

536
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:08.680
to like really scare people, so really to scare Noriega.

537
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:11.799
But like it just the whole thing is just like

538
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:14.039
so it's wacky. You know, there's a lot of stuff

539
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:17.759
that just doesn't make sense. And yeah, the book can

540
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:20.359
only answer so many questions. By the way, I didn't

541
00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:22.839
really put that many things in there that I couldn't prove.

542
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.319
The documentation, yeah that makes sense.

543
00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:28.359
It's really solid, but I didn't want to just write things,

544
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:31.119
and I guess I couldn't prove or I couldn't corroborate.

545
00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:34.119
So yeah, but it's all really interesting. I would highly

546
00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:35.240
recommend that documentary.

547
00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:38.480
Yes, well, we clocked it up. It's on Netflix. The

548
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:40.599
Pandama Deception. It's on Netflix.

549
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:43.839
Okay, it's on YouTube for free. I think that's where

550
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:44.359
I watched it.

551
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:48.559
Oh oh even yeah, perfect, Okay. I honestly would believe

552
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:50.720
that too, because when I was reading the human Rights

553
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:52.319
report that I used for my research, there was a

554
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:55.240
lot of panominions that were interviewed and they kind of

555
00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:57.119
sent the something like they could have just gone to

556
00:27:57.200 --> 00:27:58.920
him and got him, Like they didn't need to come

557
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:01.880
to our poor neighborhood and bambas and attack us. They

558
00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:04.720
like said a lot of the same things the need.

559
00:28:05.079 --> 00:28:08.079
I would yeah. Yeah.

560
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:11.400
Plus with which with the involvement of that, the US

561
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:15.839
already had like no Diega and whatever regime is in

562
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:18.880
charge aside, the US is always like they always have

563
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:22.000
had a hand in Panama. I think that even like

564
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:25.720
currently now with like the third I don't know what

565
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:28.319
they're calling it the official name, but like sending people

566
00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:31.319
deporting them to other places that are not where they're from.

567
00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:34.960
They're using a jail in Panama right now for that

568
00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:38.279
as well. That they didn't really need permission to do

569
00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:40.359
so they just did it because like the US is

570
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:44.480
so involved with Panama, so I'm sure that they one

571
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:47.119
hundred percent would have known where he would have been anyway, like,

572
00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:49.079
so that's yeah, that's.

573
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:51.720
They knew, they knew. And then I mean when.

574
00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:56.119
The troops sort of hit the grounds, Riega scrambled, you know,

575
00:28:56.200 --> 00:28:58.359
they he sort of realized his life was in danger.

576
00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:00.920
And yeah, he can say what he wants.

577
00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:05.119
He still picked up a machine gun and like fass

578
00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:06.000
against the soldiers.

579
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:09.039
You know, he didn't exactly go out and he wasn't

580
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:10.039
going to go willingly either.

581
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:11.519
No, No, he wasn't.

582
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:15.640
Yeah, he's also an expert, you know, a trained liar,

583
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:19.880
like expert spy. You know, when he was interviewed by

584
00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:22.119
Peter Eisner for that book, like he had an agenda.

585
00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:25.720
So it's really interesting taken me. Yeah, comparing it.

586
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:28.559
To Carolos's story, which is what I have, and then too,

587
00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:31.000
and then to everything else that's available. I mean, there's

588
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:33.319
there's not a lot out there, but the stuff that

589
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:36.200
is out there, there's some really good stuff that people

590
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:38.079
were I guess like reporting.

591
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:39.359
On actively during that time.

592
00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:41.960
There's a guy called Richard Coster who wrote a really

593
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.400
good book called In the Time of Tyrants.

594
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:46.559
And he like he's an American dude, but he's lived

595
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:49.200
in part Yeah, he's an American dude.

596
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:50.920
Time of Tyrants.

597
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:53.200
Lived in Panama. Since I think the nineteen fifties. He

598
00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:57.000
arrived there as a US soldier. I think he sort

599
00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:59.440
of fell in love with the place, became a journalist,

600
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:04.160
like an English journalist in Panama, working for American newspapers,

601
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:07.799
and then he just stuck around. And when the when

602
00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:11.200
the regime started, he was heavily opposed and he was

603
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:14.519
like one of the few people that wrote against against

604
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:17.960
the de facto leaders, the dictators and.

605
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.359
Yeah, really impressive. God, but he wrote the book.

606
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:23.079
I think he released it like in nineteen ninety or

607
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:26.079
nineteen ninety one, like a year after the invasion. Pretty

608
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:29.839
ballsy if you ask me. Yeah, yeah, well so, yeah,

609
00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:32.359
I'd highly recommend not too. It's like it's great, it's

610
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:34.279
but it's huge. It's like four or five hundred pages

611
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:34.759
or something.

612
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:41.160
Dang okay adding that to the TBR and yeah, of course,

613
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:43.720
we don't want to come across like we're like defending Danga, Like,

614
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.240
of course it was a brutal dictatorship. But I think

615
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:47.839
it's important.

616
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:48.680
To tell.

617
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:53.480
The story and come from an angle of criticism, I

618
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:55.720
guess from the US, instead of making it all like

619
00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:58.799
from the point of view of all the US is

620
00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:02.000
liberating these trees from oppression because that's a story that

621
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:04.640
gets sold from the US like worldwide.

622
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:05.839
Yeah.

623
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:08.119
Absolutely, Yeah, at the end of the day, it's it's

624
00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:11.640
you know, US intervention in Latin American politics.

625
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:14.799
It's you know, proxy governments.

626
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:18.599
You're meddling with politicians to sort of achieve an outcome

627
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:20.880
that that benefits the US more than it does the

628
00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:23.720
local people. So it's it's a problem that obviously, it

629
00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:26.759
still happens today all over Latin America. All over the world,

630
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:30.079
you could say, but especially in Latin America, I would

631
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:32.319
I would argue just because of the proximity.

632
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:34.400
It just seems to happen everywhere, you know.

633
00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:40.480
Yeah, yeah, the US is has always had a very uh,

634
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:43.920
I don't know, interests, very important interest in Latin America,

635
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.440
and like, you know, we could see that all the

636
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.680
way back from I don't even know the beginning, like

637
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:49.839
the Monrod.

638
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:51.839
Doctrine and yeah, the Monroe doc all that stuff.

639
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:55.039
So yeah, exactly, that's that's when it all went wrong,

640
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:56.680
the downfall.

641
00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:07.319
Yeah, yeah, well, before we go, where can people buy

642
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:11.279
your book and then follow you for more information? Also,

643
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:15.200
I guess before that, anything you want to say to like,

644
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:17.359
I don't know, I'm sure our listeners would already be

645
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:19.400
interested in buying the book, but like if they weren't,

646
00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:21.680
what is like your one liner to like convince them,

647
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:22.880
like you need to read this book.

648
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:28.480
I would say that although the book tells essentially what

649
00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:33.400
is essentially a story from a bygone era, which is

650
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:38.599
the Cold War in Latin America, the themes and the

651
00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:44.440
topic itself is completely cyclical, and everything that happens in

652
00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:47.559
the book, I would argue, was happening right now in

653
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:50.319
real time, and we're only going to realize that in

654
00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:53.319
a few decades to come. So I know that was

655
00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:55.480
more maybe more than one sentence.

656
00:32:56.119 --> 00:33:00.759
No, but it was perfect. Yeah, you can write this

657
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:04.240
book about so, yeah, it's a history.

658
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:05.720
Yeah.

659
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:08.960
And then yeah, where can people follow you your work

660
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:10.119
and then find your book.

661
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:14.119
You can follow me on on Instagram at don dot

662
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:16.960
killian So do you n any dot C I L

663
00:33:17.079 --> 00:33:19.359
L I A N And then you can get the

664
00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:20.599
book on Amazon.

665
00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:22.160
That's probably easiest for most people.

666
00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:26.119
And if anybody that's listening like owns a bookstore, works

667
00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:28.839
for a bookstore or a library or anything like that.

668
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:33.640
It's available for a wholesale on Ingram's back So it's

669
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:36.240
available for like Master distribution and stuff like that too,

670
00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:38.599
but Amazon is totally the easiest if you're just buying

671
00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:40.119
one copy perfect.

672
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:42.279
And thank you so much for taking the time to

673
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:45.039
come on and reaching out to us to even come on,

674
00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:48.279
because yeah, otherwise I would have like missed the this

675
00:33:48.279 --> 00:33:48.920
book completely.

676
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:51.880
Really yeah, no, that's most people will.

677
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:53.640
So that's why I gotta That's why I gotta do

678
00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:54.799
this to get the word out there.

679
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:57.240
But I appreciate you guys so much for having me on.

680
00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:58.240
I really love what you do.

681
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:00.240
I think you and very few of the people on

682
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:03.839
social media sort of talking about this and it's like

683
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:06.319
so apparent, like it's on the news every day. I'm

684
00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:08.880
surprised more people and sort of like having this sort

685
00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:09.559
of discourse.

686
00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:11.360
So thank you guys for doing that too.

687
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:19.360
Yes, thank you. Okay, we hope you enjoyed our interview

688
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:22.000
with Killian and that you go out and buy this book,

689
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.039
because we did already. We already bought it. We probably

690
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:28.199
reading it as you're listening to this episode. As you're listening,

691
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:32.800
we're at least halfway through the work. No, I'm being serious,

692
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:35.039
this is not for all. Well, I put it in

693
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:36.519
my jar. I don't know when I'll end up with

694
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:39.360
reading it. Oh, I that's this is the first book.

695
00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:42.119
I'm making a list of books that I already have. Oh okay,

696
00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:43.760
and I'm just going to go on order. I'm not

697
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:46.880
going to do it random. I'm just going to order

698
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:49.320
because so this is book. This book is ready to go.

699
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.679
It's like when I said jar. Also, just to clarify,

700
00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:52.360
I made a jar.

701
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:54.400
No, she has an actual jar.

702
00:34:54.519 --> 00:34:58.840
Yeah, with the list written down in little pieces of

703
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:00.719
all the books I own, and just throughout the year,

704
00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:02.559
I'm just going to pick out from there. So I'm

705
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:04.840
getting read it eventually, I just don't know when. And

706
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:07.800
I'm reading it as we speak, as we are speaking

707
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:10.039
in your ear right now, I'm reading this book. You're

708
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:13.840
hunched over reading. No, my posture is actually good. Also,

709
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:16.519
I just bought Dreams in Incarceration his other book. Oh,

710
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:19.760
his other book. It actually sounds also really fascinating. Again,

711
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:21.480
you would have heard it already when we were like,

712
00:35:21.559 --> 00:35:24.440
this book sounds really fascinating, right right, You probably are

713
00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:27.239
buying it as we speak. I will assume. I could

714
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:30.400
only assume, and I mean if you, if you cannot

715
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:34.840
buy it, demand your libraries get this book. Yeah, because

716
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:35.400
you can do that.

717
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:36.199
Demand it.

718
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:39.280
You can ask ask for it, request it, request you

719
00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:42.000
can request that your library. Yeah you can. But yeah,

720
00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:44.159
other than that, we hope that this was one less

721
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:45.360
Estoria Unknown for you.

722
00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:47.199
Bye bye.

723
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:53.159
Estoria's Unknown is produced by Carmen and Christina, researched by

724
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:56.440
Carmen and Christina, edited by Christina. You can find sources

725
00:35:56.440 --> 00:35:59.239
for every episode at Estoria's Unknown dot com and in

726
00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:01.840
our show notes. Creating the podcast has a lot of work,

727
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:03.800
so if you want to help us out financially, you

728
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:07.480
can do so by supporting us on Patreon at patreon

729
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:09.360
dot com. Slashy Studios and own podcast