A Brief History of the Panama Canal Zone (Part Two)

0:12 Hi everyone. This is Carmen and Christina and we're in Hell. But also this is the Stordia's Unknown, a podcast where we talk about Latin American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals with heavy topics like this is some corruption and genocide. But more than that, it's also by resistance, power and community, things that we're gonna need. Also, it's our present, not also the past. That's true. Yeah, it never ended. No, it's our present, past in our future well hopefully not future, but yeah, I mean it is what it is. We are what we are. Here we are, they are what they are, and here we are. Yes, okay, doctor Seuss, I know what's wrong with me? Oh yeah, it's January twentieth as we're recording, so yeah, yeah, all right. Today we're continuing our discussion of the Panama Canal. Do you want to say anything before when I start? Nothing related to the Panama Canal zone, just womb lands the song if you know, you know it's stuck in my head, deep in my womb land. Please stop before it gets stuck in my head. I'm not saying that out loud anymore.

1:25 It's gonna stay in here, thank you. Okay, So last episode we talked about how coated a canal in Central America was the French effort to build a canal, and how the Panama Canal came to be under US control, Yeah, because the US was feeding for it right, right, and they hadn't feaning for it for a long time, and how it came under control of the US through the nineteen o three And I realized I was saying, I like Spanish, but it's hey, it's an English name, so for the US, Okay, that's what I'm gonna say. Not I was like, I blah blah blah whatever. So under the the Treaty nineteen from nineteen oh three, the hey bo now Varia treaty, that makes more sense. Yeah. And last episode I mentioned that I'm just laughing that you were saying time. Yeah, I feel dumb, but we love you know hi. Yeah, last episode I mentioned that Panamanian elites were more than happy to accommodate the US elites and basically sold out Panama. But I didn't get into specifics, and I still won't get into specifics too much for the take of time. But I felt like it was important to kind of like explain a little bit more because I was confused with the I looked into it a little bit more. And anyway, the name of the treaty comes from John Hay and Philippe bow Varia, who signed the treaty. John Hay was the US Secretary of

2:56 State and Philippe bo Now was acting as a representative for Panama. Even though he was not from Panama. He was French, and he actually had not set foot in Panama since eighteen eighty seven. Geez. And there's a longer story to that that you can read about on one of the links. Let me say which link in case anyone wants to look more into that. That one is the one that says read dot Duke, press dot edu and then blah blah blah blah. But okay, you'll see which one it is. Yeah, okay. So bo Now would also become Panama's first minister, even though he hadn't said, well, did he go back to Panama? At least I think he did. I didn't look more into that. He probably did.

3:40 I'm assuming, okay, like I would hope, so if you became the minister. Yeah. Bo Now was a French engineer and investor, and he was one of the major bankrollers behind the Pandamanian separatist movement. He was also an investor in the French company that had been trying to build a canal in Panama. So he had a lot of steak in the US purchasing the rights to the canal from the company that he had investments in, and so he made a lot of money when that did happen. It's not what it always comes down to. I thought I added a little bit more here, but I didn't. But just off the top of my head, Hey, the US representative, whatever the hell he was, he had stake in the railroad company, so they all had money in this. Yeah.

4:29 So that's as much as I'm getting into that. Okay, Well more context always hopes. Anyway, issues between Banama and the US arose pretty much immediately over the Port of Panama and which country would control it. Last episode we talked about the treaty, and the treaty said that Bantama had given in perpetuity and this means forever, by the way, because I didn't explain that last episode either, just in case anyone didn't know. So, Bantama had given in perpetuity to the US a five mile zone on either side of the canal. But there was one exception to that, and that was the cities of Panama and Cologne and their ports. They were not included. Those were supposed to be always for Panama. Yeah, they were excluded from the treaty.

5:16 But not even two months after the treaty, the US started arguing about the language of the treaty, which specifically said the ports adjacent to the city, because they wanted more control over everything, right of course. See, it's like the if you give a mouse to cookie, Yeah, but the US is not a mouse, the like this fucking evil I don't know monster, and they're just like more more, yeah, or the other saying about I gave you my hand and you took my arm or whatever you know, and then you like fucking bit my entire arm or something and you tore my arm off. Yeah, and then you just kept going and yeah, devoured catibalism. That's what we're talk about here, exactly how the saying goes, Yes, word for word. There's a lot more to be said about all of that, which the book erased does get into.

6:04 But I guess to me, the most important thing to know about this was how Panamanians viewed themselves and their government versus how the US viewed Panama. At this point, Panemanians viewed their government as a progressive republic until very recently. At that point, they had been a part of Columbia, who had abolished slavery ten years before the US and enacted loss granting freedom of press, separation of church and state, and universal manhood suffrage meaning black people, black men could vote. I don't know about people. I just know about black men. Actually, okay, I'm not sure if women were included and included yeah, probably not, no, because what year was this? In? Nineteen oh three? Okay, and I think for this well ten years before that would be eighteen okay, ninety three. I think around this time is when all the suffrage movement from women started, but I don't think it happened yet.

7:00 And then the book she talks only about black men, so I'm assuming women couldn't vote at this point. Yeah. Yeah. Throughout this time, while Panama was under Columbia, they were acting as their own state, so they still have their own governments and things like that, right, Okay, And anyway, compared to the US, I mean, they had abolish slavery, like they were miles ahead and write, you know, progressive views and movements. Yes, right, but the US and the West would never see Panama in this way, of course not. Yeah, so Teddy Roosevelt saw black people from the Caribbean as backward, inferior beings who needed an American guiding hand, as was a typical view back then. I was gonna say he also didn't view black people in the US very well either, despite right inviting who did he invite through some well, no, I think it was. No, I could be wrong. I don't remember. I'm not sure. The black like leader leader in some like he invited him to the White House, and people praise him for that, but it's like you still know he was like racist and eugenesis, right like in other words of you rooted in paternalism and super superior, superior reality. Yeah, I said it, you didn't, You didn't.

8:23 Such was this paternalistic view that Americans wrote bandamask Constitution in advance of Bandomas independence and Bunao Vadiya's wife sued Banama's first flag. She made the flag Banama. Oh wow. So they they were just like, we're just gonna do all this for you because you're too stupid to do it yourselves. Yeah, not surprised, not at all. Banama viewed themselves as smaller and less powerful, but equal to the United States. Oh no, what a mistake, Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Ultimately they fucked around and found out that's selling out to the US is not the wind that they thought it would be, and it never is it never will be. Yeah.

9:07 So we has more contexts here, and we're going to talk about the prevalent view that the West had of the tropics, which I don't think will be surprising to anybody because it's like stuff we've touched on already, like when we talked about eugenics, when we talked about the bath rights. Basically, I don't know everything, yeah, because everything is connected, yes, and we mentioned that in another episode, and yes that it's on the Bengo card that off. Yeah. But yeah, even though that we've talked about these things already, I think it helps to build an understanding of how the US approached the development of the Pama Canal in Panama. So a hot topic in the US at the time was you guessed it eugenics? Whoa? Whoa? Who would have thunk?

9:51 No way? Popular books like The Control of the Tropics by Benjamin Kidd and an Introduction to America Expansion Policy by James Morton Callahan pushed the belief that white people from the US and Europe were superior to people of color or to quote from the Control of the Top Tropics. It popularized the idea of quote the absolute ascendancy in the world today of white people from the US and Western Europe over the colored racist and quote, I'm rolling my eyes so hard right now. And it's also important to note that this book was published in eighteen ninety eight when the US was taking over the Spanish colonies of Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Philippines, and the US justified political control of these colonies and later Panama through the belief that they were bringing civilization and democracy to these regions, which is part from the truth. And it's still a justification that the US uses around the world today. Yeah.

10:51 I mean, honestly, anytime you hear like we're bringing democracy, no, they're just making terror. That's a red flag. Yeah, it should be a red flag. Yeah, some people still like fall for it. Some people believe that the military gives us our freedoms. How a man to get freedom from from a military base in across the world. Like, no, you think the military base in the Philippines is gonna give us freedom? Okay, dumb. In the American Expansion Policy Book, James argued that people in the Tropics were unable to live under democratic institutions, stating the trend of modern history seems to be toward colonization and protectorates. And this is a state that is controlled and protected by another. In other words, equality for less civilized peoples, and that it will be futile for any first class power to fold its hands and stand aloof from regions which, although they cannot perhaps be colonized by whites, must be governed by a base in the temperate zones by the US and other nations whose duty is to undertain work in the interest of all as a trust for civilization. All that to basically say, in his view, these regions need the US to become civilized. Yeah, but really what the US needed was their resources, yes, yeah, and to steal them all and make any off of it. Right. So, while

12:24 Panama had counted on keeping control of their ports and sharing control of the zone, the US believed that only they were civilized enough to control the ports and the canal only they were smart enough. Yeah, it did not matter to the US at all that the Port of Panama had a four hundred year history as an international port. It's also important to note that Panama had reason to expect the US to keep its word about the treaty because they already had experience in working with foreign powers, since the canal was the third largest infrastructural project being undertaken by foreign power in Panama, unfortunately known as debiant right right. So first US capital built the Banama Railroad in the eighteen fifties, then the French company started the construction of the Banama Canal in the eighteen eighties, and throughout all of that, Colombia, which Panama was a part of, then kept political jurisdiction over the towns and territory. So Panama had no reason to think it would be different this time. But the US government isn't like other girls.

13:31 It's worse. Yeah. And then on top of that, the president in charge of the US government at this point in time was Teddy Roosevelt, who truly truly believed that the US was better than everyone and Americas were better than everyone, and that he needed to what you've said it, You've said her already. They needed to be in control, and they needed to help everyone right become more civilized and all that. And so I mean, just look at and again, I'm going to do a separate episode on him and the country surrounding him. But the US National Park System being what it is today, none of that happened if it wasn't for him believing that white people were better. So yeah, I read the transcript, and I still want to listen to an episode. But I read the transcript from the Panama Canal episode from the podcast Under the Shadow, and they actually interview Marik sa Lasso, who is the author of the book that I read.

14:27 Oh cool, in this episode. But in their episode they get more into Roosevelt's beliefs and they talk about a speech which I think is the quote I said from Roosevelt last episode. I think it comes from that speech that they talk about in their episode. And I guess this speech has a name because it like birthed a concept. Let me scroll down to find it. What was it? The good neighbor policy. It's it's like all of those things are basically the same but the Roosevelt corollary, Oh, yes, this is the corollary to the Monroe doctrine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, So all of these things are tied together. But it's a speech that he gave that basically served as justification to what was done in Panama, and I don't know, I guess in other places later on. I would hope people remember what the Monroe doctrine is. But should we just give a quick overview? Yeah, I guess we could, But I guess people look at the Roosevelt corollary as the original Monroe drocks in. I don't know what came first.

15:39 Did the Monroe doctrine actually come first? Yeah? So the Monroe Doctrine was James Monroe, President James Monrose addressed to Congress in eighteen twenty three, and it established the US stance on European involvement in the Western hemisphere, basically saying like that it was a threat for all these places to be under European control, that they should they would be better off under like US or American control. Yeah, what I gathered from it, but let me just find it more smarter. There we go. The Monroe Doctor's message was designed to keep European powers out of the Western hemisphere.

16:23 And then Roosevelt's corollary, Yeah, so their European powers, according to Monroe, were obligated to respect the Western hemisphere hemisphere as the United States' sphere of interest, meaning they shouldn't be in the global South, that's on this side of the world. So South America, Central America. Okay, So and things like that. The Mono doctrine was invoked in eighteen sixty five for the US government exerted military pressure and support of President. So it's done good and bad, right, But so to support Benitojuarees when Emperor Maximilian took over, I don't know who never remembers us talking about that, the whole thing called Mio thing. But then, okay, so the Roosevelt corollary, it was Roosevelt proclaiming the right of the United States to exercise international police power and to and so it's like extending the Monroe doctrine to give the US permission to meddle. Yeah. Basically in a speech, right, he says, certain circumstances may force the United States to the exercise of basically playing international police to quote protect the world. Right, m I guess that's where that comes from. Yes, yes, And then like it was further empowered after who the fuck's editing World War Two Eisenhower, I think so yeah, yeah, but we know this. But if it's not, let's pretend it is. But yeah, I think so, yeah, I think

17:54 so so yeah, yeah, just because it was their way to justify right medaling US and red medaling. Yeah, and they're terrorizing right of Central America and South America. Right. So the conflict over the ports was actually like a smaller conflict within a larger conflict over the interpretation of the Hey Bunao Treaty, and it was a question of which country was entitled to the sovereignty over the canal zone, and this came to head in nineteen oh four, only a year after the signing of the treaty. The main issue was that Banama and the US disagreed with the treaty's third article, which gave the US control over the zone as if it were sovereign. The US and just sir this to mean they had the powers of a sovereign government, because of course they did, and to them this included the right to print postal stamps and to establish customs between Banama and the Zone, which would separate the zone's markets from Banamas and would force Panamanians to pay import duties while Panama in their own fucking country, right right, I'm like houseway, tell me how in my own country? Come on. Yeah, and Banama believe the treaty had only given the US control over what it needed for the construction, maintenance and defense of the canal, and any other roles remained in the hands of Panama, which makes sense, which is of course it's Inama in the country.

19:29 You would think that this piece of land that was made in their land, that is still in their land would be under their control, right. I mean there's more to that that I'm not going to get into, m HM. And precedent which I kind of talked about because this is the practice that previous foreign that they need companies that. Yeah, but like we've been saying, it's just never enough for the good old US, right of a. And Banama's argument was that it would have never entered into a contract knowing that it would bring them in calculable damage, which are losing its ports. Yeah, very lepidate my face moment. Yeah, yeah, it was for them and so yeah, they argued that losing their access or control of their ports and sovereignty over the zone would harm them economically, and so that they what, I've never signed a treaty saying that or agreeing to that. And for US, the idea of Banama controlling its ports and the zone was laughable because they're like, who are you, Like, you're what do you what do you mean? Yeah, you can barely read. Basically, that's what they're arguing, boiled down to, well, it boiled down to you can barely read and you're dirty and gross. Fuck. Yeah, No, of course it didn't. No it did. Yeah, they argued, No, but yeah in the sense, yeah, you're such a right quote, you guys are dirty and you're bringing disease to the ports is what they said. No, of course no, but yeah, kidding,

21:04 I would start this again. But they argued that the US needed to control the port for sanitation purposes, stating that the sanitation benefits outweighed Banama's financial losses if it were to lose control over its part. And then I saw mentions of a protest in nineteen oh four over this disagreement between Panama and the US in the book and also in other articles, and then I tried to look more into that, and the only thing I found I couldn't access and everything else since it was talking about the protests and in the nineteen sixties, I think, like nineteen sixty four or something like that, so I couldn't find more information about the nineteen oh four protests. But either way, ultimately these diplomatic arguments and conflict led to the Taft Agreement, in which Banama received some concessions, but ultimately canal ports were kept under US jurisdiction. And some of those sessions were that they wouldn't be Like there was a where I said imports whatever, they wouldn't be tex text THEIA. Yeah, like if it was a foreign, okay, import or whatever, because it's not right. It's not yeah.

22:17 Although many of these conflicts were arguments between Panamanian elites and US elites, the US would later paint a picture that it was an issue of the civilized versus the non civilized, and later write the language became developed versus underdeveloped. The US pushed this idea that the zone was a wild jungle filled with native huts and towns, and it wasn't. But the US travelers to this region described the houses as gerty huts and described the people, who were largely black, as lazy people who disdained any work that was not very lucrative. One traveler said, quote the natives have been read rendered indolent by their climate and were apt to depend almost entirely upon the abundant yield of tropical production for their livelihood end quote, and said they had a characteristic laziness and non chalons. Wow yeah wow. Others ridiculed Panamanians by describing them as half naked and calling them primitive.

23:26 In reality, these towns along what would become the Panama Canal Zone, like Gorgona and Chagaris, were bustling towns used to dealing with foreigners, especially after the Gold Rush, since US travelers would stop and Panama on their way from the East to the West coast. Panamanians along the river towns like Chagdis had developed their own rich culture which was tied to being close to the river, and also had their own politics which was largely downplayed by the US And I did include it here, but something that I remember from the book is like Panamanians would make fun of the US people from the us because they're always in a rush, and they had like songs that they would like make fun of them, or they would like mimic the or mock the American to be like ow Go Go. But it was it was a bustling town with a thriving economy because it was along this historic trade route that had existed forever, like four hundred years. Yeah.

24:26 In places like Gogana, black men were mayors since slavery had been abolished and universal man had suffrage had been in place for a while, and Americans would often clash with the mayors because they were racists. Yeah, no, of course, because of racism. Yeah. On one occasion, the black alcalde, or mayor of Gurguana ordered his soldiers to control a mob of Americans who were writing over the rest of a fellow American who had robbed some travelers from Chile. It's like, you robbed someone face the time, man, you did the time. No, you did the crime to the time. Yes, yes, but no Americans in the entitlement, it doesn't apply to them. Yeah, right, Uh, what is that other thing, American exceptionalism? You know, they're full of fucking shit. Yeah. So the alcalde noted that robberies and disorder increased upon the arrival of the Americans, because of course it did. Would you look at that, Wow, was uncivilized? Actually, who are the real savages? The people robbing clockett causing mayhem and disorder? Crime? Right. In another occasion, the mayor of Goa intervened when he winnessed and enslaved a woman being slashed by her American enslaver, and he ended up freeing the women because that was Columbian a law.

25:51 Oh my god, I love that was federal law. And you know, wherever you are, you respect the law exactly, are you law abiding or not? Americans were not, of course, and there's many accounts of Panamanians whispering to enslaved people traveling with their enslavers that they could just escape, easily escape and be free, and you can just stay you just run away, run away, stay here. And other towns along the Panama Canal zone were railroad towns, like the towns of Empire and Gatun. Empire was the second largest railroad town and only continue to grow as the US developed the canal pretty much right away. Empire, like other zone towns, was divided between an American side and a Native side of course, because like American people cannot mingle and and what's it called get? Like what do they tell people when you come from another country to the US, You have to oh like acclimate yourself to the culture. Yes, okay, but they can't work themselves to Yeah, but I can't think of it. They can't anserate themselves to the cities that were already in place in Panama because they're too good for it, because they're racist, because they're better, and they can't they can't be in next door to a free, you know, black family. No, they're above that. So they're going to sell segregate, and you know, I argue this whole civilized non civilized that the United States was putting up.

27:23 Like you can tell who was uncivilized right away by their how they view other people, because the United States was far from freeing enslaved people. Yeah, but no, they don't see they don't see it. Some people still don't see it, right, Some people, like certain people elected today or not like it. But they were already in power coming into power. Yeah, and I earlier on the Isthmian so can pronounce that. Yeah, it's saman anyway, the Isthmian Canal Commission or the ICCUH. This was the American administration commission that oversaw the construction of the Panama Canal. So the ICC thought, and that's something that the book mentions that earlier on the plan was not to depopulate places.

28:22 So they thought that Empire would be a permanent town, and they built many public buildings, laid out streets, built a switch system, open public schools, and built the public market just like really developed the city, right. Yeah. And the ICC also developed and built housing in Gatun since they knew that Gattun's occation was essential to the building of the canal. But the ICC's work was rooted in racism and the views we talked about earlier, like eugen X white supremacy, and the ICC struggled to make local towns conform to their urban and sanitary ideals. Between nineteen oh four and nineteen fifteen, the Panama Canal Zone went through three major periods. First, between nineteen oh four and nineteen oh seven, which is kind of the period that we were talking about right now, the ICC and the zone authorities kepped the old Panamanian municipal structures and zoned towns had both Panamanian and American mayors. Then, during the second period of nineteen oh seven through nineteen twelve, the ICC got rid of the zone municipalities, which became administrative districts, but most towns still remained in their original locations, and the town residents were able to keep their properties and basically stay where they were, okay, until they weren't. Yeah.

29:48 Between nineteen twelve and nineteen fifteen, the ICC depopulated the zone, getting rid of its old towns and replacing them. In nineteen twelve, President Taft issued an executive order to depopulate. Between the years of nineteen thirteen and nineteen sixteen, about forty thousand were removed from the zone and the towns in the zone like Atun Empire and Gorgona, and the towns in the Zone were dismantled one by one. A common myth is that the zone had to be depopulated for technical requirements for the construction of the canal, But that's not true. It was political, an excuse they made up so that they could remove everyone. Right, And that's where we'll leave off today, and I think next time we'll talk a little bit more about these periods that I just mentioned the years or the different time periods of the right now. I said there was three major periods. Yeah, from nineteen four to basically nineteen fifteen, okay, and then the removal of these towns. Is this period two or three?

30:55 Uh three? So between in nineteen twelve okay, when that executive order to depopulate was issued. And the third period is between nineteen twelve and nineteen fifteen when the depopulation was happening. So and next episode you're hoping to get into periods two and three more? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh cool, cool, Okay, Okay, I'm excited. I'm ready. You're not because you're not done yet. They're not done yet. That is correct. Okay, Well, thanks so much for this information because I did not know even just this part and the last one. I don't know that much about the canal zone. And it's again, it's a hot topic right now. So that's I think why it was even better that you're covering it because somebody keeps fucking naming it. Yeah, it is a right what you just said. Yes, yes, so somebody keeps saying that the US is going to take back control over the pedemic canal and it's like, no, stop it. You can't just v other countries, like what's wrong with you? Not only is he saying that about the Patama Canal, but what else did he? Dumb as shit?

32:07 He said, oh my god, Greenland? Yeah, right, the Gulf of America. Dumb dumb. It just shut down the same mouse like you're so stupid. Yeah, so fucking dumb. Yeah. In other news, I mean, I'm not gonna get to much into it because I just been watching videos. But we've been talking or we talked before about okay, really fast, they don't hear what I said, and I think we talked about are we bringing back our segment? Yeah a little.

32:48 I guess it's not like super right in death. Nope. All right. So and in other bullshit news, and I'm gonna put the noise downd here, Yeah, yes, all right, go on. So Minidia or allowing the mining, Yes, there was a law right that has been in place that banned mining and then the longest time, the longest of times, yeah, Bukula dismantled that law, basically allowing the mining. And I can't remember if it's a certain region, but basically I mean the mining, allowing mining again and some of LOTT, which was outlawed because of the destruction it causes to the environment, right, right, And these were protected rivers and land right right, that needed protecting and hence the law that was put in place. Right. And he also like last year or was it the year before, I remember, because they were in jail for a while, he arrested some of the activists that were vital in creating or banning mining right. Oh yeah, this was like almost two years ago. Yeah, yeah, So they were eventually freed. But his motive for arresting them was bullshit. It was basically exercising his power, like it was basically dictator behavior. Gone.

34:16 Part of the state of exception was so that he could races them without exactly immunity, was doing whatever he wanted. And that's it's not about the gangs. It's not all about the quote unquote gangs activists, but a lot of them got arrested, professors, journalists, fleet because they were being targeted. Yeah, and it's all like, oh, well someone said you were talking to a gang member. How do you dispute that? Yeah, So just a bunch of bullshit. And so recently Bukelen his dumbass supporters passed a law or like I said, dismantled this law to allow mining again. And I think it went to effect at the time recording the weekend I just passed. And so there's been a lot of people and protesting against this law, and it's just been beautiful to see the has Oh and this I keep seeing you've sent me, but I've seen them on my for you pages because TikTok is back, and so we've been we've been seen on the for you page. This curly heart queen just you know about this and I love her. Yeah, so we can share her user name, so anyone that wants to keep up with the protest.

35:28 And it's so dangerous to be protesting in these times, but it's important because the land is being destroyed for mining and it's all again for profit, but none of it is benefiting the people of not the people that need it. It's benefiting the rich, as it always does. I believe her page is underscore Esseve Cincoce. Okay, well we'll link it in the show notes as well. Yeah, maybe we can just link that first video I sent you, Yeah, yes, yeah, well you know, just like copy the linkin and put it in your notes. But yeah, I just wanted to mention that it's been beautiful to see all the protests and people coming together against book. M hm. Is there anything you want to add before we go? No, No, I think that's it. Oh you know what, Actually, one more thing since we're here. Uh my last TikTok post before it is shut down. I talked about this book I've been reading. Let me just get the full title out. Oh, yes, we're doing recommendations. We recommend you follow the TikTok user.

36:39 We just set yes, right. The book is the Palestine La Lab Laboratory, Laboratory, laboratory. Yeah, look at me, like fucking dexter laboratory. Okay, dexter, fucking dexter, all right, the Palatine Laboratory. How Israel exports the technology of occupation around the world. Old by Anthony Loewenstein. And honestly, like anyone that maybe even didn't know about this issue, but now it has has woken up to how torrible the situation is. And and anyone who's like suddenly like no free pales sign all day. This is a must read, not only because like it really shows you how how insidious the Israeli government is. But it it really really goes into how deep they were in the right winged regimes in Latin America, like outside about Lord during the Civil War, the military junta and Nargentina. They're involvement with the Guatemalan genocide of the Maya, the indigenous Maya. It talks about all that, but also one and I'm like learning so much from this book. But and I shared quotes from the book in my post. It's hard to hear though, because I was walking, Yeah, my my fifty minute walk to get my steps. But multitasking, Queen, I know, I tried.

38:08 Plus it was TikTok was gonna supposed to go dark on that, Like I gotta get the stop, I gotta get time to make it pretty. So they all, we're back, and we're fucking back. What a waste of time. But I read quotes from the book that are like that left me my job open. But one of the worst to me was learning how similar the US border and Gaza really are because the surveillance system used on the Palestinians in Gaza, like they know exactly who everyone is. Their facial recognition software is truly insane. And so scary that it exists. But this is the same systems that are in place in the US border. And the book talked about how like drones are regularly used on Palestinians like that gets too close to the wall or that are protesting that these drones just like shoot and just criminately.

39:04 And these same drones are were purchased like in twenty twenty two for the US border, So it's not far fetched to say that soon these drones are just gonna start shooting at migrants trying to or asylum seekers trying to come in, and that it's like first maybe it'll be shocking, but eventually some people in the US are just going to be like whatever, that's that's what they get. I mean, that's already what they do to all the whorees that the I sell asylum seekers experience. Yeah, I was gonna not discussing the people that already excuse it, right, right, I already have this belief. But I see they're going to straight up be like murdering people at the border with these drones they were already purchased. That's what the drones do. Terrifying. Yeah, And there was talk about these dogs, these robot dogs. Oh my god. This is also like the Hunger Games. Like I don't want to like be like, you know, the typical white person that brings in like ya dystopia, because the author of the Hunger King, yes, took these ideas like things that have already happened in real life. Just like what's the other author of the other book that white people women love to bring up that everything was based in two events anyway, Oh the Handmaids tell oh yeah, right, yeah, they love to be like this is gonna be Handmaids Town. It's like, you know something already like that. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, that's and that's what all these books are. But back to the other book, that's actual true, right happening. I don't know the jelationship come back? Come back? Are the dogs

40:36 the dogs? Yes, yeah, they're gonna. I don't think they're in use yet. But these these this technology is all Israeli made. Like that's the reason. One of the reasons they've made so much money is because they test and this is a new knowledge, but they test these systems on the Palestinians and then they sell it to the world. Yeah, and they don't care who buys it. They don't care. This is why they sold so many things to all those right wing regimes that were literally Nazi. Oh yeah, like yeah yeah, and even even like nacotrigants will buy these and then use these things to uh assassinate journalists.

41:17 They don't care who's buying it. The book also goes into the murder of a journalist in Mexico and how the use of pegasus uh was related or helped the people who killed the journalists. And pegasism is another is Reelly software. Yeah, all for you know, surveillance, state surveillance, and you know migrants obviously migrants and asylum seekers, you know, they're the same one and the same they're going to be affected by already being affected by these systems. But also indigenous people that live along the border that have been there, you know, they're indigenous forever. They're also being targeted because they they live in the same state surveillance. Uh, they're it's just it's so much. But like there's already you know, with the increasing raids that are happening and the mass deportations that are cut to come, there's already indigenous people being harassed about like oh are you are you native, where's your identification? Can you prove it? And during Operation Wetback, a lot of them were deported or almost deported because they look because it's all racial based and so many of us are not white, are darker, right, So yeah, all this to just say read that book please. Yeah, and we'll put it in the show notes too. But yeah, okay, that's it. That's it. I was just looking at my library to see if they had it, but they don't. Wow, your livery sucks. Yeah, they have some other books on

42:50 palest Sign, but not that one. Oh okay, okay, I want to get the hard copy. There's just there's so many books. Are you listening to the audiobook? No? I actually got the e book. Oh, I see, because I wanted to highlight things because when you highlight things on candolet's say so forever, so yeah, then your highlights. So yeah, I want her to highlight things. So yeah, I got that e book, but I want the physical book. Okay. That I think that brings us to the end of the episode. Thank you everyone for listening, and we hope that this was one list. It's story unknown for you. Bye bye.