July 17, 2025

A Brief History of Los Chicago Boys in Chile (and Latin America)

A Brief History of Los Chicago Boys in Chile (and Latin America)
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On September 11, 1973, a coup overthrew the democratically elected Chilean president, Salvador Allende. This marked the beginning of the Pinochet dictatorship and up to that date, Los Chicago Boys wrote out the 500 page plan that became known as the brick. The economic plan for the new regime. Then throughout the dictatorship, Pinochet elevated Chicago boys to higher positons. But who were they, how did it start? In this episode, Cristina tells Carmen about the Chicago Boys, the School of Chicago and their ties to right wing dictatorships in Latin America.

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Music Credit: Hustlin (Instrumental) by Neffex

Sources:

The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Boys
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics
https://www.promarket.org/2021/09/12/chicago-boys-chile-friedman-neoliberalism/
https://americasquarterly.org/article/fifty-years-on-the-chicago-boys-remain-difficult-to-discuss/
https://thebeautifultruth.org/the-basics/what-is-the-friedman-doctrine/
https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2014/09/basics.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_therapy_(economics)

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WEBVTT

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Hi everyone, This is Carmen and Christina. This is Istois

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Unknown in podcast where we've talked about Latin American history,

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sometimes the torrible and deals with heavy topics like racism, corruption,

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and genocide. But more than that, it's also about resistance,

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power and community. What are we what are we talking

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about today? Well, Carmen, in episodes sixty one through sixty five,

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we discussed Allende, the coup that overthrew him, Yeah, which

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was orchestrated by the US, which put dictator Pinochet into power,

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which marked the beginning of his decades long dictatorship. Yeah,

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that ended in nineteen ninety. And I realized that in

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those episodes I completely skipped over the Chicago Boys. I

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really only mentioned their name. Oh that's right, yeah, yeah,

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And they were a big part of this, But I

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just I was already doing so much research that I

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didn't I couldn't add them on. And a while ago,

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like almost two years ago, maybe I posted a video

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about the School of Americas on both TikTok and Instagram.

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But on TikTok somebody commented, can you talk about the

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Chicago School or the School of Chicago, And I was like,

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oh yeah, And then I forgot about it completely until

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right now because I was reading The Shock Doctrine by

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Naomi Klein, and first of all, the book talks about

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so much. It's such an important read, especially in these times.

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But it reminded me to finally do an episode on

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the Chicago Boys because they're a big part of the book.

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And again, I never explained it in those episodes. I

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just said who. I just said, like, they did the

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economy stuff and they sucked. I think maybe this That's

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all I said. Okay, I was just going to remember

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do you remember the context in which they were mentioned

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in those episodes in a sentence where I was like,

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and he put the Chicago Boys in charge of like

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the economy you plan for his dictatorship. And that was

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about it. That's all I said. If I even said

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that much, I honestly can't remember. I think you said

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that because I do. They're not in my notes. Oh

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I do remember that you mentioned that they were had

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something to do with the economy. M hm, So who

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were they? They were a group of Chilean economists who

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studied at the University of Chicago under Milton Friedman. Do

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you know the name? Yeah, that sounds very familiar, and

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at first glanced this may seem completely right, like, oh,

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it's just some people from Chile studying in the United States.

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And for those who don't know, because I needed the refresher,

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I know I heard the name, but I didn't know

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anything else. Milton Friedman. Yeah, I recognize the name, and

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I'm like trying to remember for the left of me,

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why what specifically I know him from. I know somewhere.

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It's something in the economics world, obviously, but that's all

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I remember. Yeah, anyway, moving on, So Milton Friedman. He

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was an American economist and statistician. He even received the

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nineteen seventy six Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Scientists for

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his research on consumption analysis, monetary history and theory, and

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the complexity of stabilization policy. Stabilization policy. That doesn't sound

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good though to me, writing sounds like an expert in

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destabilizing economies. You don't say, all right, I downe foretold Okay.

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In nineteen seventy he wrote a New York Times essay

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called a Freedman doctrine. The social responsibility of business is

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to increase its profits, a theory that argues that the

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main responsibility of a business is to maximize the revenue

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and increase returns to shareholders. Basically, no company is obligated

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to engage in social responsibility. And sure whatever if this

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is only applied to businesses, yeah, okay, but governments and

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country I don't know about that, right, because, like if

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you wanted to, if you went and colonized the country,

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you have a responsibility to the people, to me to

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a society. If you want to be in charge of society,

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you need to care for the people in the society.

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Things like that, right, Yeah, Like countries or governments are

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not businesses should not be ran like businesses. That's not

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how things work or should work, right, And so his

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little theory should have really only been ever applied to businesses.

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But I will add here that it should be no surprise.

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But guess what group of people love Milton Friedman and

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the Chicago Boys, the right wing A specific group tech bros.

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Do you give up? Oh wow, so I'm just way off. No, No,

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I mean some tech brows probably fall under this too. Capitalists, Libertarians,

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all libertarians. Wow, I just don't think about them, right,

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I forget things. Do you remember that story of that

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liberty are in town and it went to shit so

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fast town. Yeah, they had a libertarian town so in

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the US, and then basically no one was picking up

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the garbage because they no one you forget even and

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I think bears ended up overrunning the town. Wow, No,

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I don't remember where it was. I remember they tried

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to start like a society on a boat or some

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shit like that. And oh, that didn't work out for

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them either. It never works out. Yes, libertarians love his

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school of thought. Under Milton Friedman, the Chicago Boys learned

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to emphasize neoliberal principles. They advocated for free markets, deregulation,

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and privatization and presented these as solutions to countries and

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economic crisis, which how in what world? But we know

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you and I know, yeah, that neoliberalism is never the answer. Yeah,

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that's why they were so fucked right now. Even then, though,

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you'll find people that still celebrate the Chicago Boys and

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Milton Freedmen. No way, of course. But let's go back

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to the beginning for a second. Where did this start?

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Milton Freedman, he is considered a second generation member of

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the Chicago School of Economics, but because he's one of

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the biggest reasons this was so widely implemented in Latin America.

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I'm not worrying about anyone else in this episode. I

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don't care. He along with the other main person who

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was teaching the Chicago Boys who then went to Chile first.

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That guy's George Stigler, and so together they were the

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leading scholars of the Chicago School. And like I said earlier,

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they were all for the free market, like literal, unregulated

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ultimate level capitalism. They saw Keynesian economics as their ultimate enemy.

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And for those that don't remember, like myself, because I

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forgot everything we learned and ap economic I know these terms,

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but I don't remember what exactly. Like I know, I

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heard the word yeah because again Ipie econ everything went

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in and out my ear and I was like, I

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don't know, I don't care. Yeah. Anyway, basically the most

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basic basic explanation, Canadian economists justify government intervention through public

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policies that achieve full employment and price stability. Okay, so

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like all the stuff, yeah, all the stuff FDR did

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to get the US out of Keynesian Yeah, and they

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hated it, right, that makes sense to me that aspecting

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and they were like the leading economists in the US

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basically back then too, like because the US they did

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a lot of funding programs. Obviously Republicans always cut that back, right,

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but like that was like a fundamental thing, like create

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programs that create jobs things like that. Anyway, So yeah,

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they hated I FDR and everything he did during the

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Great Depression. This includes Milton Friedman, who most likely got

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his free marketing ideals from his parents, who were immigrants

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from Hungary. They arrived in the US in their early teens,

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and they were really hard working, like pull yourself up

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by the bootstraps type people and then kick the ladder

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down you're there, so no one else can climb up

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with their boots that I got my Yeah, And that's

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what it feels like when you read what they did. Right,

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So they bought they bought a garment factory in Broadway,

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New Jersey, and this factory had an apartment which they

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lived in. And Milton Friedman himself wrote that today this

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factory would have been called the sweatshop. So they were

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paying their workers' pennies while they made profit. Right when

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was this and during this time when this is all

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pre the Great Depression? Okay, well I know back then

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they had people working like dogs. Oh yeah, during that

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was my next sentence. Basically during this time period, Marxist

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ideals and anarchists and then that's their words were influencing

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workers to demand their rights and to demand weekends off.

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Like that's how Milton's father said it. It's just wild

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for me that, like they really expect you to do

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the work, and that's what they want to go back to,

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you know, just work, work, work, no life. You're basically

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are little workers and that's it. Yeah, yeah, And so

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eventually the factory went under, and of course Milton's father

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blamed the Marxists and the workers who wanted free market. Baby,

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sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But of course this

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mark Milton Friedman's childhood, and after he graduated high school,

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he had his eyes sent on becoming a mathematician, but

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then he went with economics. And all of this is

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during the middle of the Great Depression when he's in college.

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And so while other economists, while other young economists saw

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FDR's New Deal as life saving measures and they were,

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Milton Friedman and his wife described what FDR's New Deal

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did as quote job creation programs, or they said the

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following about it job creation programs such as the WPA,

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the Works Progress Administration CCC, the Civilian Conservation Group in

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case you don't remember what those acronims were from, I

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don't remember either, and the PWA the Public Works at

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Administration appropriate responses to the critical situation, but not the

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price and wage fixing measures. So they thought the work

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programs were good, but they didn't think the price and

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wage fixing measures of the National Recovery Administration and the

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Agricultural Adjustment Administration were necessary. So they didn't. Okay, they

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didn't think it wasnt so anything that stopped the market,

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according to them, and stopped prices from like doing whatever, right,

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Like it's like interfering in the free market. Yes. Yes.

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He would later say that the new Deal was the

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wrong cure for the wrong disease. I'm like, bitch, what

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does that mean? It helped the United States? Like, wow, well,

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I think they meant the free market what have you

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eventually fixed everything? Yeah, that's what they meant. The federal

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and according to him, the Federal Reserve was to blame,

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and unregulated, unregulated capitalism was the answer that would have

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fixed everything. Okay, just what I said. Yeah, and then

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in nineteen forty six, Milton Friedman began to teach economic

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theory at the University of Chicago, where he taught for

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the next thirty years, and there he taught his school

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of thought, the free market. You know, that's why it

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later he was a pioneer of this. Basically, Freedman and

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his followers used models and statistics to prove that this

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would work better than any Keynesian economics or any other

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existing economic theories principles. But they had no way to

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prove it because nowhere in the world was this taking care.

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I was just going to say, like, real life is

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not like statistics, Like that's not how it works as

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much as you wanted to. Yeah, And they had nowhere

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to actually carry out their theories until until, yes, until Chile,

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Oh my god, and the Chile Project ridiculous. So Argentina,

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Chile and other Latin American countries had been closing the

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gap between the poor and the wealthy for a while,

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usually through leftist governments like Peron in Argentina, at events

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in guatemalac and Allende and Chile, And can you tell

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me what all of those hadn't come in they? Uh?

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Did they tried to kill all of themen. They were

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all overthrown all of them. Sorry, I can't remember that word,

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but oh it's fine. I knew where I knew where

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you were going. I just wanted you to be the

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one to say it. But I'm sorry, let me down.

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But that's okay. Yeah. And of course the wealthy they

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didn't like this, because do we This work of closing

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that gap between the poorland wealthy often involved nationalizing industries

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where outsiders currently had the little greedy fingers in giving

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land back and these companies, we would lose money if

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these governments kept going right, so Q the CIA and

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the toppling of democratically elected governments to supposedly fight communism.

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So in nineteen fifty three, two Americans met in Santiago,

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Chile to discuss this growing problem of THEIRS, the nationalization

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of industries, these governments, these leftist governments being elected workers

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demanding rights. And before anyone says ayend, there wasn't an

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office until way later than this meeting nineteen fifty three.

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I know, but like this type of like covert work,

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two topple institutions, it begins decades before actual cups take place.

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Plus there was a time because he ran for president

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three times. I think it was before he won. I

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don't remember if TV won, and he was in the

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Senate too, right, and I don't remember if he won

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on the third or fourth time that he ran. But

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so like he was gaining more and more followers at

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supporters every time he ran, and more support for these

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leftist ideas, and so he was identified as a threat

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even back then. Yes, they could see where the tides

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were going. And so thus this meeting in nineteen fifty

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three between these two American men in Santiago, Chile. These

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two men were all Beyond Patterson, the director of the

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US International Cooperation ADAMAN in Chile. And side note but

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this is the predecessor to the US AID. Oh yes,

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and Theodore Schulz, the chairman of the Department of Economics

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at the University of Chicago, again where Milton Friedman was teaching. Okay,

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so these two men were both concerned with these growing

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leftist movements in Chile and the economists participated in these

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movements and how it affected their profits. Apparently they called

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this pink economists. I've heard that before. I think they're

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meaning just leftists policies like leftists economists, because like, if

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you google that right now, it shows up like queer people.

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But that's not what it meant back then. So I

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think that's what I inferred, at least that that's what

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they guess. That would make sense to me. Yeah, and like,

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of course the book I was reading didn't really explain

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what it was. They just assumed because it was written

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in and seven. So we're like, bitch, I'm dumb. I

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don't know. Yeah, but that's my guess. So one of

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them told the other quote, what we need to do

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is change the formation of the men to influence the education,

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which is very bad. Say that again. What we need

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to do is change the formation of the men, formation

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of the men. So the way these men think, okay,

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we need to influence their education because right now it's

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bad because they keep coming up with these pink economists. Okay, okay,

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I see, yes, yes, So both men already believed the

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US wasn't doing enough to fight Marxism, which they were

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again intervening everywhere, right and together, the men came up

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with a plan that would be called the Chile Project.

258
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This was their plan. The US government would pay to

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send Chi then students to study economics at the University

260
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of Chicago, which at the time was considered the most

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anti pink So that's why I thought pink men left. Yeah,

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because it was the most conservative school at the time.

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I don't know if it still is. Maybe it's like

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because you know how red it was, like the red scare,

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like communist color or whatever. Like maybe pink because these

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were like students. I don't know, oh, maybe, and Theodore

267
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Schulz and Milton Friedman would be paid to travel to

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Santiago to conclude research into the economy and to train

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students in the Chicago school ways. And when al Beyond

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Patterson approached the dean of the University of Chile and

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offered a grant on top of the program, the dean

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declined why because he saw the program for what it was,

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US intervention. It was basically telling the US telling Chile

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what their top students should be learning. Yeah, and then

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dictating that education. And so yeah, he was like, no, no, no, no,

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thank you. But do you know but do you know

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who Albion went to next, who then said, yes, Milton, No,

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Milton is his colleague in this. Oh my god, so

279
00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:49.039
each other? What other university would he go to that

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wasn't the University of Chile but in Chile. Yes, yes,

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I don't know. I'll tell you, okay. The dean of

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Chile's Catholic University, Oh my god, I should have known that. Yeah,

283
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I thought you were. You know, your brain's not here today. No,

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I'm just kidding. And if you recall from the Chile

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episodes we did again, like sixty one through sixty five

286
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or something like that, the Catholic Church was one of

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the biggest supporters of Pinochet. They were very conservative and

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they wanted to maintain that. Yeah, so of course they

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00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.000
said yes. Also, the Catholic University at the time had

290
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no economics departments either, and so they said yes so fast.

291
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They were like yes, like in media. Yes, And this

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is the official birth of the Chila Project. And the

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program would only be open to select students. And this

294
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was intentional because they wanted to produce quote, ideological warriors

295
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who would win the battle of ideas against Latin America's

296
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pink economists. Wow, yes, yes and quote. The CHEEA project

297
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officially launched in nineteen fifty six with one hundred students

298
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pursuing advanced degrees at the University of Chicago. Their tuition

299
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and expenses all paid for by US taxpayers and some

300
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US foundations, but mostly taxpayers. Wow. Ten years later the

301
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program would also accept students from all of Latin America,

302
00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:19.440
but three countries saw the most participants. Do you want

303
00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:24.119
to try and gas those or no? No? Okay Aargentina, Brazil,

304
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and Mexico. I was going to say, Afgentina, that's one

305
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of them. Yeah, And the Ford Foundation further funded this program,

306
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and then this led to the Center for Latin American

307
00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:40.720
Economics Studies to be placed at the University of Chicago.

308
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In this program, there were fifty Latin American students studying

309
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graduate level economics at all times, and it achieved what

310
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:52.680
it wanted in ten years. This extremely conservative school was

311
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the place for Latin Americans to study economics and then

312
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they would return to their countries and shape policies there decades.

313
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Under this program, students were taught disdain for policies that

314
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alleviated poverty. The first group of students that returned to

315
00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:17.000
Chile were quote even more freedman nights than Freedman himself. Wow,

316
00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:24.079
so not good. No, Then these students that returned to

317
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Chile became professors of economics at the Catholic University, where

318
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.720
they trained even more Chilean students in this school of

319
00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:36.599
thought to do more influencing. Yes, and by nineteen sixty three,

320
00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:39.720
twelve of the thirteen full time faculty members at the

321
00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:43.960
University of the Catholic University in Chile were graduates of

322
00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:48.799
the Chicago School. Wow. Students who graduated from the program,

323
00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.079
whether they were in Chicago or in Santiago at the

324
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Catholic University became known as Los Chicago Boys. Then, with

325
00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:01.319
USAID money, they went on to set up similar programs

326
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as far as Colombia, but also at Jentina, Brazil, Uruguay.

327
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At first glance, this plan to influence Latin America was

328
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very slow going, like it even seemed to be failing.

329
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They're like, where are they, When are they going to

330
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start becoming more conservative? When are they going to let us? Yeah?

331
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But then in nineteen seventy Chile elected Salvyende, like we

332
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know from all those episodes, and all three major political

333
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.079
parties in chileg were in favor of nationalizing the copper mines,

334
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which at the time were controlled by US mining companies.

335
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These companies had invested over one billion dollars in the

336
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last few years before nineteen seventy and their profit was

337
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seven point two billion, damn And so yeah, they were like,

338
00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:47.480
we don't want this to be nationalize. That's what we

339
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make money. And then when all seemed like all hope

340
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was lost, Nixon was elected in the US and we

341
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know what this means. He gave the CIA the order

342
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:05.880
to make the quote Chilean economy scream end quote. And

343
00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:09.240
like we discussed in the Chile episodes, they flooded money

344
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into anti Allende propaganda. They also created policies that would

345
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:18.960
hurt the Chilean economy under Allende, like denying loans. And

346
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this is on top of the CIA's like pouring money

347
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:25.680
into this like this is also US mining companies along

348
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with the International Telephone and Telegraph Company Purina, like the

349
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Dog Food and Bank of America and Pfizer. They formed

350
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:36.240
a committee whose sole purpose was to get Agenda to

351
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back off nationalizing industries by making him face economic lapse.

352
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That was a Britain goal, and their plans included blocking

353
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loans to Chile, having US private banks do the same,

354
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delayed buying any theme from Chile for six months, and

355
00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:58.960
so on, but Allenda was still holding the majority of

356
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the support in Chile despite all of this Wow and

357
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then because their plans were working too slow again, the

358
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Catholic University became one of the meeting places for the

359
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:16.799
planning of the coup. Orlando Science, president of the National

360
00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:23.440
Association of Manufacturers, then recruited top Chicago Boys to design

361
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alternative programs to government programs like financial or economic one

362
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economic ones, and then they would pass these programs, these

363
00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:35.880
planned programs onto the armed forces. The Chicago Boys, led

364
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.880
by Sejo de Gastro and Serjo Unduruga, who knew that

365
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:43.960
said he was such a cursed name, they held weekly

366
00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:47.400
secret meetings where they discussed how to remake their country

367
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into neoliberal lines. And so they, along with the majority

368
00:23:53.400 --> 00:24:00.079
of these companies and the military, planned the overthrow of Allende.

369
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:04.359
And they, I'm sure we said it in the somewhere

370
00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:06.759
in the five six episodes that we did, but they

371
00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:09.240
received seven to five percent of their funding from the CIA,

372
00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:12.160
and by the time the coup was said to take place,

373
00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:15.839
the Chicago Boys had a five hundred page economic program

374
00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:18.960
to guide the junta. And the junta we said in

375
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.839
those episodes, but they were the three military heads that

376
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would govern Chile, but then Pinochet took charge. But that's

377
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:31.039
the junta. This five hundred page program was known as

378
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:34.240
The Brick. It was put together by ten principal authors,

379
00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:38.079
and eight of those ten were Chicago Boys University of

380
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:42.599
Chicago graduates. And although the military was responsible for the

381
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:45.880
physical overthrow of Agenda, the military part of the fighting.

382
00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:49.319
This was an equal partnership between the army and the

383
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:54.400
Chicago Boys. Each page of those five hundred pages of

384
00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:57.720
the Break was approved by someone in the military by

385
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:01.799
September eleventh, nineteen seventy three. Because when you look up

386
00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:05.480
the Chicago Boys first, the one they're celebrated two people

387
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:07.039
try to make it seem like they didn't know that

388
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:08.759
this was going to be a dictatorship, or that they

389
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:11.480
didn't know they by landed. They knew they worked together

390
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:17.200
all along. Yeah. So, following the coup, Pinochet named several

391
00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:22.279
Chicago Boys as senior economic advisors, including Steel Castro. During

392
00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:24.759
the first year and a half of his regime, Pinochet

393
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:27.599
followed all of the rules laid out by the Chicago Boys.

394
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:31.079
He privatized state owned companies, not all of them, but

395
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:35.839
most of them. He let in foreign imports, he eliminated

396
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:39.599
price controls, and he cut government spending that was not

397
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:43.839
the military, and that was instead increased. The Chicago Boys

398
00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:47.039
insisted that without government involvement in all of these areas,

399
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.839
the natural laws of economics would bring equilibrium and inflation

400
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:55.400
would go down. Stupid yeah, because within the year inflation

401
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:59.599
had risen three hundred and seventy five percent. It was

402
00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:04.039
at the time the highest in the world. Wow. Unemployment

403
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:07.440
hit record levels because free trade was flooding the country

404
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:10.119
with cheap imports. People were losing their jobs. But the

405
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:13.440
Chicago Boys insisted that it was because the rules of

406
00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:17.240
their program weren't being followed with the right amount of strictness.

407
00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:21.640
So they advised even more cuts and more privatization, and

408
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:26.079
Pinotet did it. And the only people benefiting from this

409
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:30.759
was foreign companies. Of course, Yes, that's why they wanted this.

410
00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:35.400
Those were planned all long. Oh yeah, one hundred percent.

411
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:39.640
At this point, even previous business owners in Chile that

412
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:42.559
had cheered for the overthrow Byende were starting to want

413
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:47.599
his return because they knew it was still better. Damn.

414
00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:50.720
It was so bad that they brought in Milton Friedman

415
00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:53.759
himself in nineteen seventy five, so he could fix the problem,

416
00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:57.839
but he was also stupid. Well, Milton freedman solution was

417
00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:01.599
something called the shock treatment, and shock treatment or shock

418
00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:05.160
therapy is a group of policies intended to be implemented

419
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:07.359
at the same time, all at the same time, a

420
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:10.440
bunch of different policies, all implemented at the same time,

421
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:15.680
to liberalize, liberalize the economy. And that's like the economic

422
00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:19.880
version of shock treatment. But then like the overall now

423
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:25.920
known like term or term or known definition for shock

424
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:31.680
therapy is for governments to put out a bunch of changes,

425
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:34.680
not just financial changes, but a bunch of changes at

426
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:38.440
the same time to like overwhelm people that might want

427
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:42.000
to guy studying is now they were calling it when yeah,

428
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:46.960
when he was announcing executive orders. Yeah, I forget what

429
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:49.759
they call liberals like flooding the system or some shit

430
00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:52.559
like that. Yeah, that's that's a term that kept going around.

431
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:57.039
And so shock treatment is what Milton Friedman described this,

432
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:02.359
but like the financial version, but it's really all the same. Yeah,

433
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:05.279
but he really thought it was going to help. I

434
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:08.720
don't know. He advised the cutting of government spending by

435
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:11.319
another twenty five percent in six months. And then he

436
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:15.119
said that unemployment, the unemployment problem would only last months

437
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.079
at most. And then he returned to the US and

438
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:22.519
he wrote about Pinochet in such a nice fashion, even

439
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:24.559
though at the time it was already known that he

440
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:29.920
had stadiums full of preous torturing. Yes, and the disappearances

441
00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:36.240
it was like already speculated worldwide. So but he wrote, quote,

442
00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:38.880
the general was sympathetically attracted to the idea of a

443
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:42.200
shock treatment, but was clearly distressed at the possible temporary

444
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:46.160
unemployment that might be caused. And it's like, please, Pinochet

445
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:48.480
didn't care about the people. He just cared how it

446
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:51.720
would make him look. But he didn't care that his

447
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.680
people would be out of work. He was again everyone

448
00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:59.920
knew he was massacrering, committee massacres and torturing in the stadiums,

449
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.640
but this didn't matter to Milton Friedman. He willingly went

450
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:06.440
to go to a country in a dictatorship and a

451
00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:09.640
right wing dictatorship and advised them, Yeah, and this wasn't

452
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:12.880
the only one. He went to uruway, he went to Argentina. Gone,

453
00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:16.400
he went to like a couple more in like Asia,

454
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:20.480
like whow And of course this didn't matter to the

455
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:24.680
Chicago boys either, right. Pinochet was all in on Milton

456
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.680
Friedman's plan, and he fired the economic minister and then

457
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:30.160
gave that job to said hell Castro, So the like

458
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:34.400
main Chicago boy at this point, and said hell Castro,

459
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.440
then filled the ranks with even more Chicago boys, and

460
00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:40.480
together they privatized more than five hundred state owned companies

461
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:44.119
and banks. By nineteen eighty three, one hundred and seventy

462
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:49.920
seven thousand industrial jobs were gone. That is a lot.

463
00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:54.240
Unemployment reached twenty percent, the highest in Chile. Do you

464
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:56.759
know what that unemployment was during Nayenda? Do you remember

465
00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:00.640
three percent? So they it was way less, That's all

466
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:05.640
I remembered. And why less compared to twenty percent? Yeah,

467
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:10.160
and this unemployment lasted years, not months. Unlike what Milton

468
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:14.480
Friedman said. What happened. Basic things like bread cost a

469
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:18.359
chi Land family seventy four percent of their income, and

470
00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:21.519
Pinochet simply told chi Lands to forego luxury items. And

471
00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:24.319
do you know what he considered a luxury item, oh,

472
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:30.880
basic necessities? Milk? Milk. Wow, there's also a milk program

473
00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:34.039
where kids received milk at school. That was one of

474
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:37.599
the first things cut wo Yeah, but no, the Chicago

475
00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:41.480
Boys continued despite all of this. The public school system

476
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:45.480
was replaced by vouchers and charter schools. Kindergarten was privatized.

477
00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:47.880
That's what they're trying to do here every This is

478
00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:51.519
what they've already done in New Orleans after Hero Get Katrina.

479
00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:55.640
But it's so true what they say about fascism being it.

480
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:58.519
What do they say, It's something turned inward. It's going

481
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:01.279
to come home. I don't know what they say, but basically,

482
00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:04.359
to me, it's gonna come home. The US has been

483
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:10.599
perpetrators night perpetrators, has been the person behind installing these

484
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:14.079
fascist governments elsewhere to their benefit. But eventually it's going

485
00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:15.920
to get to the point where it has to happen here,

486
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:21.759
and that's where we are. So kindergarten was privatized, cemeteries

487
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:30.759
were privatized, healthcare privatized, Social Security privatized. My god. And

488
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:34.039
the argument for this system, for those who still believe

489
00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:37.759
it works, including libertarians, say that if a country can

490
00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:40.359
hold out in the short term, then the long term

491
00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:44.240
is better. But that's not true. It's literally the same

492
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:49.400
thing they're fucking saying right now. It's gonna get worse

493
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:52.279
until it gets better or something like that. It's gonna

494
00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:54.200
get worse until it gets worse and worse and worse

495
00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:56.680
and worse. It's not going to get better unless we fight.

496
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:02.839
What is short term is what I'm wondering, because in

497
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:05.160
ten years Chile was worse than it had ever been,

498
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:09.079
and you can still find people saying the same thing

499
00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:11.039
I just said. How if a country can hold that

500
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:13.880
short term the launchm will be better. I know you

501
00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:15.720
just said. They're saying it about here right now, but

502
00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:19.400
they've also been saying it about Argentina and Milay, of course,

503
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:23.200
because that is one libertarian ass government. He cut so much,

504
00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:26.079
the inflation has gone up so high since he took office.

505
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:31.559
And also who was he friends with Trump? Yeah? And Israel.

506
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:39.880
So But back to the nineteen eighties and Chile. By now,

507
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:43.279
Chile had a crewed fourteen billion dollars in debt due

508
00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:47.559
to implementing the practices of the Chicago Boys. The economy

509
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:50.839
crashed in nineteen eighty two, and the only thing that

510
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:55.319
saved the economy was that Pinochet had not privatized the

511
00:32:55.359 --> 00:33:00.920
copper mind company Godero. He did privatize others, but and

512
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:05.519
Codelgo generated eighty five percent of Chilis export and that

513
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:10.680
was the state's steady source of income, the one copper

514
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:15.720
company that he had not privatized. And what does that

515
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:21.480
tell you that nationalization of resources is the answer. Yeah,

516
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:24.640
and the already richest of the rich were the only

517
00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:27.160
ones who got more rich under these policies. Of course,

518
00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:31.599
by nineteen eighty eight, when the economy economy was considered

519
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:37.839
stabilized by everyone else, forty five percent of Chela's population

520
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:42.680
was under the poverty line. Wow, that is again a lot.

521
00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:45.960
But the richest ten percent saw their incomes increased by

522
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:53.079
eighty three percent. Oh my god. Wow. Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous.

523
00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:56.319
And the effects of the Chicago Boys in Chile can

524
00:33:56.359 --> 00:33:59.640
still be seen today. Milton Friedman went on to advice

525
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:03.720
similar regimes in Latin America, from Brazil's junta to Agentinas

526
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:07.319
kunta to Urduai's dictatorship. Like he just went from dictatorship

527
00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:17.480
to dictatorship, advising them that is deplorable, Like you should

528
00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:19.800
be able to It's like, when we what did we

529
00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:21.840
talk about? I think we were talking about Coca Cola

530
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:26.480
way back, and I think I mentioned because in the

531
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:29.480
book that I listened to for that episode, they mentioned

532
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:34.400
the United Fruit Company and someone, some professional whatever was

533
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.960
talking about the United Fruit Company and she's like, if

534
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:41.519
doing business in a country requires you to work with paramilitaries,

535
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:44.000
and maybe you shouldn't be doing business there. And it's

536
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:48.119
like this fool should have had the ethics and morality

537
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:51.320
to be like, hey, about to work with an authoritarian

538
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:59.320
dictator who is mastercreing, massacreing, committicilling his people, then maybe

539
00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:02.039
I shouldn't come here to advise them. Like shouldn't that

540
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:05.840
be a given? You would think, you would think, But no,

541
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:10.079
And just like in Chile, Chicago boys in other countries

542
00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:13.159
like Argentina, they were giving key positions in Argentina's junta

543
00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:17.119
And like you just said, like personally, it's an extremely

544
00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:20.199
bad look when far right dictatorships love your economic theories

545
00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:24.239
and they're the only ones using them today. Some would

546
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:27.679
still see what happened in Chile as a success. Sure,

547
00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:31.880
Chile's GDP grew from fourteen billion in nineteen seventy three

548
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:35.440
to two hundred and forty seven billion in twenty seventeen,

549
00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:38.719
so a lot, but like, what is the true cost?

550
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:43.159
Because almost thirty percent of all of Chile's income becomes

551
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:48.639
belongs to one percent. There's not good ratio. Wow, it's

552
00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:53.360
one of the most unequal countries. The student protests we

553
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:56.440
talked about way back when we talked about Negro Matabacos

554
00:35:56.480 --> 00:36:00.719
and the dogs both times were a direct result of

555
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:05.039
the Chicago Boys' economic policies, so much so that protesters

556
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:10.159
were yelling chow Chicago, oh wow in the streets because

557
00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:14.840
they were fighting the privatization of schools and like the

558
00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:18.400
voucher system, if you remember that in those episodes. And

559
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:22.800
that's literally from this. In his twenty nineteen book Desi

560
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:29.039
wil Dad or Inequity, former Treasury Minister Nicolas A. Saguirre

561
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:33.440
wrote Chile was a laboratory for neoliberalism in its most

562
00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:37.639
pure or extreme version. Drastic reforms that would be unthinkable

563
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:41.960
in a democracy were executed as military orders without criticism

564
00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:45.880
or opposition, and at an enormous social and human cost,

565
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:49.159
thanks to a dictatorship that used blunt forced to block

566
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:54.360
any debate and home and yeah, he's right, yep. Pro

567
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:57.559
or free market people love to point to Chile's raising

568
00:36:57.719 --> 00:37:00.239
GDP as a success, but like again, when you took

569
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:03.559
a closer look, it's not great, Like, yeah, it's gone up,

570
00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:06.880
but fifty percent of Chilean workers are the best. Didn't

571
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:09.880
see that any of that. No, only the top top percent.

572
00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:13.400
Like I already said, it's a very unequal country where

573
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:17.679
one percent of people hold thirty percent of all income

574
00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:20.360
in the whole country. Fifty percent of Chieland workers are

575
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:22.880
in less than six thousand, three hundred and twenty dollars

576
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:26.840
per year. Wow. A small number of families in Chile

577
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:31.960
dominate the economy with companies that include like pharmacies, banking,

578
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:36.400
and phone services. And in these companies of these families

579
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:39.719
there has been cases of collusion, tax evasion, illegal payments

580
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:44.639
to politicians, and consumer fraud which no one ever served

581
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:46.920
any jailt time for even though they were found guilty

582
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:55.800
punity mm hm. And everywhere the School of Chicago alumni

583
00:37:55.840 --> 00:38:00.559
the Chicago Boys went, they faced similar numbers. In Argentina,

584
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:03.119
in nineteen seventy, the richest ten percent of the population

585
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:05.920
earned twelve times as much as the poorest, but by

586
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.360
two thousand and two, the riches earned forty three times

587
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:12.639
as much as the porous Wow. And so I guess

588
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:15.840
if their goal was to increase the gap between the

589
00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:19.800
wealthy and the poor. That they succeeded probably was yeah,

590
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:23.360
because yeah, that gap grew and only the richest of

591
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:27.199
the riches benefited from these policies. And that's what happens

592
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:33.039
in a free market world and where unregulated capitalism is

593
00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:36.679
the norm, that's what happens. And like I said, Argentina

594
00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:39.000
is currently going through the same thing again, but this

595
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:43.480
time enacted by Melay. Inflation has skyrocketed as a result.

596
00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:47.119
And this brings me to where Carman, you and I

597
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:50.840
find ourselves today in the US, like many of our

598
00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:54.639
listeners areas because the big beautiful bill that just passed

599
00:38:54.679 --> 00:38:57.599
has very much the same kind of Chicago School principles

600
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:01.239
that these same governments in Latin America, which were dictatorships,

601
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:06.400
implemented big cuts to programs that aid the poor. Education cuts,

602
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:10.079
cuts everywhere, cut cuts, cuts and increases to military funding

603
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:15.679
or in our case ice. So yeah, that is the

604
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:21.440
infamous School of Chicago aka Lost Chicago Boys. Wow, the

605
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:25.760
destabilizers of economies. Yeah, And it's just it baffles me

606
00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:28.440
that they're celebrated by so many, but of course it's

607
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:35.440
it's the same people infecting us everywhere, like a disease. Yep.

608
00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:40.280
But yeah, unless you have anything else to add, this

609
00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:44.519
brings us to the end of the episode. M I

610
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:47.760
don't think I have anything to add except that what

611
00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:51.639
is that saying history doesn't repeat itself at rhymes or

612
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:53.639
some shit like that. But the thing is, I don't

613
00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:56.880
know where it's like full circle, what's like a fitly loop,

614
00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:01.159
like the same happening again and again and again and again. Yep. Yeah,

615
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:03.079
And it's not that it's repeating, it's that it never

616
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:06.760
went away and it's just getting bigger. Right. That's yeah,

617
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:09.960
it's an infinity loop everywhere, right, because like you mentioned

618
00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:11.840
at Quintina is going to do it with me lay

619
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:19.280
this extreme free market neoliberal whatever. Uh. We're seeing people,

620
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:23.880
these rich people, rich companies trying to do use Latin

621
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:29.199
America as their own experiments to enact this kind of stuff.

622
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:33.119
And we've seen that in Prospera a. I don't know

623
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:36.119
if it's an island or a city in Onduras, but

624
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:41.159
it's they're trying to create like modern company towns. I

625
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:45.119
forgot what they're calling them, like free free something fancy

626
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:48.039
name to highly find that they're company to company towns.

627
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:51.719
Like it's not New Yeah, and it's literally like extreme

628
00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:56.920
versions of this yeah. Yeah, And I highly recommend my

629
00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:59.719
main source for this, which was The Shock Doctrine. There

630
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.639
is an other book that's focused on the Chicago Boys,

631
00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:06.679
but honestly, it's very biased towards them, Like they don't

632
00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:09.960
even praise them. Yeah, they like pass over the fact

633
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:12.880
that they were literally part of the coup and they

634
00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:16.400
were like, like the book even mentions like, did does

635
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:20.440
Chicago boys know of the violence? It's hard to say,

636
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:23.800
and it's really not like said he there's evidence, Yeah,

637
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:28.920
what the top Chicago boy was rising through this position

638
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:31.599
by Pinochet, Like they knew, There's no way they didn't know,

639
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.159
But the book glazes over that and like gives them

640
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:37.960
the benefit of the doubt. So I don't recommend that book.

641
00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:41.440
If you want a real picture of what they were doing,

642
00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:46.440
definitely read The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. And it's

643
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:49.079
also like she uses the Chicago Boys a lot as

644
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:51.440
an example of this type of thing, but she also

645
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:55.320
talks about how this type of thing where something happens

646
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:59.599
where basically a region is destroyed either through war or

647
00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:04.000
through these type of policies, and then free market pro

648
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:08.840
capitalists companies come in to do the fixing, and instead

649
00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:13.960
they create this hyperinflation like they happened in Iraq. It

650
00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:19.159
happened in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. So weren't they

651
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:23.840
trying to do that also in Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria. Yeah,

652
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:25.599
And I don't know if they did or didn't because

653
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:27.599
I haven't looked into it, but I know Thailand when

654
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:29.679
there was a and the book also mentions this, but

655
00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:32.480
there was a national disaster in Thailand, and I think

656
00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:35.639
it was the tsunami, and Thailand worked with their government,

657
00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:40.719
never let in outside companies from the US, and they rebuilt.

658
00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:43.920
The fishermen worked with the government to rebuild their own

659
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:48.400
and they rebuilt. They rebuilt everything for them and it

660
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:50.559
worked for them. And they even had this group of

661
00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:54.079
survivors from Hurricane Katrina go and see what Thailand has

662
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:56.719
rebuilt at getting chills just talking about it because the

663
00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:01.400
Hurricane Katrina it was the opposite situation. They were basically abandoned.

664
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:07.079
It was forever changed. Yeah, for the worst. And one

665
00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:11.079
other survivors like cried and was like everyone needs to

666
00:43:11.079 --> 00:43:13.960
follow this. This is what everyone needs to do when

667
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:19.199
there's a disaster. You cannot let these outside contractors crying.

668
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:23.079
And yeah, I highly highly recommend the book because wow,

669
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:27.360
also shadowt to I don't know how she or they

670
00:43:27.400 --> 00:43:32.480
pronounced their name on socials, but on Instagram and antic

671
00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:35.440
talk it's the same. It's like a yeah, okay, I

672
00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:38.119
think I'll put it in the show notes. But she

673
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:41.159
was like, here's the books I've read to keep me sane,

674
00:43:41.199 --> 00:43:43.760
and it's but it's all like books to inform you

675
00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:47.159
on the situation, and the Shock Doctrine was one of them.

676
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:49.079
And I was like, oh, I've read some of these,

677
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:50.679
but I still need to read the Shock Doctriner. And

678
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:52.280
I was like, I expect you to read it because

679
00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:54.360
I know you'd be reading because she follows us on

680
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:57.800
StoryGraph and so she's like, I expect to see this

681
00:43:57.880 --> 00:43:59.559
and I did. I read it for these notes, so

682
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:02.840
shout out out. That was the push I needed, and

683
00:44:02.920 --> 00:44:07.920
also to finally write these notes. And yeah, that was

684
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:11.000
a one mess. It's already unknown or I hope I

685
00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:13.920
said that wrong. Goodbye everyone, and we hope this was

686
00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:18.320
one mess. Is Studia Unknown for you? Yes? Bye bye.

687
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Astoria Unknown is produced by Carmen and Christina researched by

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Carmen and Christina, edited by Christina. You can find sources

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for every episode Attoria Unknown dot com and in our

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show notes. Creating the podcast has a lot of work,

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so if you want to help us out financially, you

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can do so by supporting us on Patreon at patreon

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dot com. Slash She studied as an own podcast