Aug. 21, 2025

A Flower Traveled in my Blood with Haley Cohen Gilliland

A Flower Traveled in my Blood with Haley Cohen Gilliland
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In the early hours of March 24, 1976, the streets of Buenos Aires rumble with tanks as soldiers seize the presidential palace and topple Argentina’s leader. The country is now under the control of a military junta, with army chief Jorge Rafael Videla at the helm. With quiet support from the United States and tacit approval from much of Argentina’s people, who are tired of constant bombings and gunfights, the junta swiftly launches the National Reorganization Process or El Proceso—a bland name masking their ruthless campaign to crush the political left and instill the country with “Western, Christian” values. The junta holds power until 1983 and decimates a generation. One of the military’s most diabolical acts is kidnapping hundreds of pregnant women. After giving birth in captivity, the women are “disappeared,” and their babies secretly given to other families—many of them headed by police or military officers.

For mothers of pregnant daughters and daughters-in-law, the source of their grief is twofold—the disappearances of their children, and the theft of their grandchildren. A group of fierce grandmothers forms the Abuelas de Plaza de Mayo, dedicated to finding the stolen infants and seeking justice from a nation that betrayed them. At a time when speaking out could mean death, the Abuelas confront military officers and launch protests to reach international diplomats and journalists. 

They become detectives, adopting disguises to observe suspected grandchildren, and even work alongside a renowned American scientist to pioneer groundbreaking genetic tests. A Flower Traveled in My Blood is the rarest of nonfiction that reads like a novel and puts your heart in your throat. It is the product of years of extensive archival research and meticulous, original reporting. It marks the arrival of a blazing new talent in narrative journalism. In these pages, a regime tries to terrorize a country, but love prevails. The grandmothers’ stunning stories reveal new truths about memory, identity, and family. 

https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/A-Flower-Traveled-in-My-Blood/Haley-Cohen-Gilliland/9781668017142

Haley Cohen Gilliland joined us on this episode of Historias Unknown to discuss her journey with this amazing book.

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WEBVTT

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Hi, everyone, This is Carmen and Christina and this is

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a study as Unknown, a podcast where we talk about

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Latin American history. Sometimes it's horrible and deals with taby

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topics like criticism, corruption, and genocide. But more than that,

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it's also about resistance, power and community. And today today's

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a very special episode, probably the most special. I agree.

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I agree. We had the amazing opportunity to talk with

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Hailey Cowen kiland the author of the amazing, emotional, powerful,

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sad but inspiring book A Flower Traveled in My Blood,

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the incredible true story of the grandmothers who fought to

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find a stolen generation of children. And if that sounds familiar,

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y'all listeners, you will remember that Harman did an episode

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on as Susna Yeah Floor, Yeah, when was that? It

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was a while ago now, oh, it's from March second,

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twenty twenty three, episode thirty two. Whoa a Susena via

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Floor and Las mades Maon And so in a way,

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it feels like this book was written for us. What

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we said in the interview, yes, yes, But first let

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me tell you about Haley Cohen Kiloland. She is a

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journalist and the director of the Yale Journalism initiative. She's

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worked for the Economists. Four of those years that she

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worked for the Economists were spent in Buenos Aires and

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what she'll say in the interview, but again, this is

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where she first heard about Les Madis. Being in Argentina.

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Can what an experience, you know, to first learn about

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them in country. Yes, she's got a ton of work

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published in the New York Times, National Geographic, Bloomberg, Business Week,

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Vanity Fair. And yeah, A Flower Traveled in My Blood

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is her first book. And what a beautiful, amazing first book.

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Five no notes, truly, no, yeah, five out of five.

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We recommend this to everyone listening. And again if you

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stuck out reading like me, just do the audiobook. The

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audiobook is narrated by Alexandra Renoso and she does a

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wonderful job. It's a great audiobook and again you'll hear

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it in the interview. But it's a book. It's a

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nonfiction book, but it's written in a very like storytelling,

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storytelling narrative where it's not like, you know, like those

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textbook nonfiction book. Yeah, it's not dry like some nonfiction

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books tend to be. And those ty their value because

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they're very informative, but yeah, like a narrative, historical non fiction.

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It's one of my favorite accessible Yes, yeah, because some

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of us are dumb like me and more, and we

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need it to be written in this way. Remember, we

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share one brain, so we share one brain. Tell yes.

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But like, like again, you'll hear it in an interview.

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It feels like this was written for us and our listeners.

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You because this is something we've already talked of. You're

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gonna like read the book and just bring out the

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Bingo card and be like, yep, that was mentioned, that

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was mentioned, that was mentioned, Because these are things that

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we've already talked a little bit about. But this is

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a deep, deep passionate, deep dive. You're gonna like her

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passion for this story. It comes through and oh yeah,

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you definitely feel it. Yeah. Should I read the synopsis

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of the book. Yeah, read the synopsis of the book,

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and then we'll just get into the interview. In the

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early hours of March twenty fourth, nineteen seventy six, the

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streets of Buenos Ais rumbled with tanks as soldiers sees

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the presidential palace overthrowing Argentina's leader. To many, it seemed

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like just another coup in a continent troubled by them

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amid political violence and Cold War attentions. But there was

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something darker about this new regime. Quietly supported by the

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United States and much of Argentina itself, which was sick

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of constant bombings and gun fights, the junta quickly launched

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the National Reorganization Process or PROCESSO, a bland name masking

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the ruthless campaign to crushed the political left and instill

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the country with Western Christian values. The dictatorship, which continued

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until nineteen eighty three, decimated a generation. One of the

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military's most diabolical acts was the disappearance of hundreds of

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pregnant women. Patricia Rosenblitt was among them, a mother and

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leftist revolutionary label That's subversive and abducted while eight months

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pregnant with her second child. Patricia gave birth in captivity,

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making one last call to her mother, Rosa before vanishing.

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Her newborn son was also taken, one of the hundreds

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giving to police, military families and dictatorship supporters, while their

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biological parents were secretly executed and their bodies disposed of.

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For Rosa and the other mothers in her same situation,

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the loss was unimaginable. Their only solace was the hope

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that their grandchildren were still alive. United by this faith,

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a group of fears grandmothers formed the Al Mayo, dedicated

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to finding the stolen children and seeking justice from a

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nation that betrayed them. A flower toowel that my blood

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is Rosa and Yebuela's extraordinary story told by journalists with

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unique access, with authority and compassion. Hailey Cohen Gillilan brings

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this tell to life, tracing the lives of Patricia Rosa

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and her stolen grandson, Guillemo Asbelas. Transformed into detectives, they

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confront military officers, sift through government documents, assume eliasis to

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see suspected grandchildren, and even pioneer a groundbreaking genetics test

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with an American scientist. A compelling mystery and deeply researched

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account of a pivotal era in world history of flower

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traveled in My Blood. It takes readers on a journey

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of love, resilience, and redemption, revealing new truths about memory, identity,

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and family and yes and does it ever? Yes? Does

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it ever? So? Yeah, let's get into the interview.

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Here.

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We are here today with Haley Cohen Gilliland, the author

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of A Flower Traveled in My Blood. And before we

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get into any questions, I have to say, this feels

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like he wrote this for us, because specifically, yeah, me

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and Carmen and our listeners, because I was telling Carmen like, well,

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and we said this so many times, but anytime we

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talk about any history that's outside of like because we're

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in Mexican American but also Salvadorian. But there was so

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much that we had to like go and seek and

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it wasn't until we started this podcast that we just

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didn't know happened, including as the Sinabi Yeah floor, Carmen

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did an episode about her, and then the book she

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read for episode is in your sources as well. I

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was so excited when I saw that. I was like,

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I read this too. She sent me a screenshots us. Yeah,

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it feels like he wrote this for us.

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I've honored. Yeah I did.

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And first, all right, well, thank you so much for

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having me, and I'm thrilled to be here and excited

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to chat with you guys.

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Yes we have we have so many questions and we

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don't have a lot of time, and like I was

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just saying, right now, We first came across the story

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of Las aguel the La de Mayo and as Madras

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because Carmen did an episode on assusin Abia floor, and

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it feels like we got so many comments in ourselves.

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We kept saying this to each other, but like, how

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do how do we not know about this? And it's like,

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if you're not looking for this information, it's not it

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doesn't seem like unless you're in Athina. Maybe it just

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doesn't seem like it's very well known. So how did

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you come across Las Aguilas and Las Madras and all

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of this?

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Well, I would say that premise was exactly what motivated

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me to write the book, This idea of oh my gosh,

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I cannot believe that these events happened, that they happened

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so recently, and that I had no idea about them.

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But to backtrack, the way that I learned this story

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was I moved to Argentina in twenty eleven, at first

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on a research fellowship that then morphed into working as

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a foreign correspondent for four years in Argentina. And I

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moved down with a little bit of a background knowledge

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in the dictatorleadership. I knew the basic outlines of what

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had happened, that the military had disappeared tens of thousands

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of Argentines for having leftist beliefs. But I had never

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heard that among the people disappeared by the regime were

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hundreds of pregnant women and that their babies had been

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stolen from them, and then those women had been quietly

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killed or disappeared, as I'm sure your listeners are familiar with,

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Argentina turned that into a transitive verb, and these babies

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were oftentimes placed with military and police families to be

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raised under false identities. And I became completely obsessed with

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the boileas de place amacho, who were this incredible group

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of grandmothers that banded together to find those stolen babies

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their grandchildren. And you know, I lived in Argentina for

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four years, and I got lulled into this sense that

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everybody already knew this story. So while I was living there,

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it didn't occur to me to write this book. And

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then I came back to the United States and the

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story had stayed with me, And actually, when I got

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pregnant myself for the first time, it came flooding back

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in a really visceral way, and I started talking to

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friends about it.

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And I was shocked.

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I mean, I studied history in college, many of my

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friends did, and most of them had no idea that

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this had happened. And so that's a little bit of

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the backstory of both how I learned this story and

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why I ultimately felt so determined to write this book.

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Yeah, because I think other than your book, there's like

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maybe one other in English, and that's it about them,

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and it's crazy.

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Yeah, So that was shocking to me.

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The other book in English is a book called Searching

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for Life by Rita Arditi, and it's wonderful. She was

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an Argentine academic that then worked in the States for

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many years, and I owe so much to her because

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she actually donated while her life partner, Estelle Rida, died

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of cancer sadly many years ag and her partner Stell

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donated all of her interviews with the Abuelas. So by

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the time I started working on this project, it was

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twenty twenty one and many of the Ablas had passed away,

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but I had this treasure trove of archival interviews that

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Rita had done and Estelle had donated to be available

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to all researchers. So you know, I kind of this

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book was written very much. I don't want to say

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on the shoulders, because I don't know if you could

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be written on the shoulders of I'm so grateful to

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Rita for writing that book and for the research that

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she did and put into it. But yes, the only

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other book in English about the Wellas.

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And there's so many Maddis and Abelas that you could

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have focused on, and it's such a long, encompassing story

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as well. Also, we thought it was amazing how you

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were able to meet and speak to Rosa. How did

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you decide to focus on her?

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Yeah, as you said, I mean, all of the Wellas

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are absolutely incredible, and I could have written an entire

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book about each and every one of them, So figuring

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out where to focus was probably the greatest challenge. But

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I did feel very committed to the idea that the

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story be framed through the experience of one family, because

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even though the events in this book are for many

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of us, thank Goodness, very hard to relate to, everyone

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can relate to being a part of a family, and

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I felt that the closer I could get to one

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family's experience, the more the reader would be able to

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really understand and immerse in the historical events, you know,

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really connect with what had happened.

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And from the beginning of my research.

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I just was blown away by Rosa. She is such

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a maverick. She's hilarious, she's brutally honest in the best way.

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She was a first generation Argentine. Her parents had emigrated

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to Argentina to escape the pogroms. They were Jews from

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Eastern Europe, and they had become kind of successful ranchers.

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But Rosa had always had grand ambitions of living in

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a city, and so she trained to become an obstetrician

213
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at the very young age of fifteen.

214
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It's so crazy, I thought, yeah.

215
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And you know, even at a time when Argentine women

216
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generally did not work after getting married, if they were

217
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able to stop working, they were you know, middle class,

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upper middle class. She continued working as an obstetrician even

219
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after she got married to her husband and they had

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their first and only daughter, Patricia, and Patricia was their

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only child, as I mentioned, and they really poured everything

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into her, you know, they got her every type of lesson,

223
00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:48.000
imaginable ping pong, swimming art, They sent her to kind.

224
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Of Jewish school on the weekends.

225
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And in nineteen seventy eight, Patricia, their only child, was

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abducted by the military as part of this much larger

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purge of people that the military had deemed subversive. And

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this was a I put that in quotes, this is

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a very very wide definition of what a subversive person was.

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But Rosa, you know, immediately threw herself into trying to

231
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find Patricia and her unborn grandchild, because Patricia was eight

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months pregnant at the time, and after a month or

233
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so was connected with the Abellas and was a central

234
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figure in the Abllis movement for decades. She just retired

235
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a couple of years ago at the age of one

236
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hundred and two. I was about to turn one hundred

237
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and six in a couple of days.

238
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I don't know, crazy, she is still.

239
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Alive, and she just you know, she's spunky, she's plucky,

240
00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:51.000
she doesn't mince words, and you know, I think as

241
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a storyteller of nonfiction, the fact that she is so

242
00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:59.159
committed to the truth was very appealing.

243
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And vote of hers where she says throughout her like

244
00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:04.840
testimonies and even when she was talking to you, where

245
00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:07.200
she's like, I've never like I always say the truth.

246
00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:10.639
That's a perfect person really to have been like the

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main subjects of your book.

248
00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:12.720
Yeah.

249
00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:15.720
Absolutely, And she fought for truth for you know, has

250
00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:19.840
fought for truth for decades. But yeah, I think my

251
00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:25.000
favorite quote of hers and I and the I believe

252
00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:26.919
it was the author's note, but it's end one of

253
00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:30.320
the sections with this. But she said during our interview,

254
00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:33.360
you know, I always tell my story exactly as it is,

255
00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:39.159
the truth before everything, And for me, that really set

256
00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:43.080
the tone for the project because having read the book,

257
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you understand, like there are some episodes in the book

258
00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:48.600
that are much more difficult to write about, and not

259
00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:51.879
everything works out in a way that can be tied

260
00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:52.279
up in.

261
00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:53.559
A tidy bow.

262
00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:58.840
But her commitment to the truth and to telling the

263
00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:02.000
hard parts as well as you know, the triumphs, I

264
00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:07.799
think was really really empowering for me, and.

265
00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:11.759
In a way that makes her and her family even

266
00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:15.480
better subjects of the book than like a happy reunion story,

267
00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.559
because the truth was that it was so complicated for

268
00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:22.200
so many of the children that were later found, and

269
00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:25.039
like the it wasn't all like for the people that

270
00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:27.679
it was beautiful that was beautiful, but that's just not

271
00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:33.080
the reality. And so seeing the struggle, especially with Guillermo

272
00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.679
and his sister, and just seeing and then there's other people,

273
00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:41.399
but just like how hard that is for them, Like

274
00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:44.559
that's it was again so emotional to read.

275
00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:48.279
Yeah, I mean, I think it felt very important for

276
00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:52.279
me to focus on one of the more complicated cases, because,

277
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:55.200
as you alluded to, there were some Cinderella stories, some

278
00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:59.879
instances in which grandmothers found their grandchildren and immediately they

279
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:01.639
became incredibly close.

280
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They were calling each.

281
00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:06.399
Other on the phone every day, they were blending their families,

282
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.559
where you know, the adoptive family that had raised the

283
00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:15.080
child accepted the biological family and vice versa, and everything

284
00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:20.159
was beautiful from the start. But I think, you know,

285
00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:24.679
this is a story about a crime committed by the state,

286
00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:30.519
and that crime has reverberated throughout generations and it has

287
00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:34.120
effects that continue to today, and I think it was

288
00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:36.879
really important to do justice to that, but also to

289
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:39.519
show that this was one of the most surprising things

290
00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:44.600
to me. There are so many very fraught cases like

291
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:50.120
Giermo's where grandchildren did not necessarily want to be found,

292
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:54.000
struggled with their new identities when they were found, but

293
00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:58.639
ultimately almost all of them end up coming around and

294
00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:03.080
accepting their biol logical family, embracing the Abuelas and the

295
00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:08.240
Aballas movement. So there's this idea of the truth as

296
00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:13.759
an invincible force that ultimately wittens. It's like, you know,

297
00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:17.839
like water, you can't you know, you can't resist it

298
00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:22.319
forever and ultimately it prevails. So I think, you know,

299
00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.279
focusing on a case that did have complications was very

300
00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:26.920
important to me.

301
00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:29.759
It made it for like a whole better balance and

302
00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:33.039
picture of everything. It also reminds me of and we

303
00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:35.079
brought these questions down and we're not even looking at them.

304
00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:40.119
But we did another episode Carmen did on Guatemala and

305
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:44.359
what was Chile? Right, they both had very similar cases

306
00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:48.720
during the dictatorship where children were taken, but and it

307
00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:51.680
was different because they were sent out to other countries,

308
00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:53.960
like what was the one in Chile where a lot

309
00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.079
of them ended up like somewhere in Europe. It was

310
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.119
somewhere in Europe, I don't remember, yeah, hear anymore. So

311
00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:02.000
that was very very different in the case of Aarganthina,

312
00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:04.599
where they ended up with the very people that were

313
00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.480
doing these crimes against the parents, and that was that

314
00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:09.279
was mind blowing.

315
00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:10.920
I know, it's wild.

316
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:16.440
A really amazing book about the Guatemalan situation was Until

317
00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:18.279
I Find You by Rachel Nolan.

318
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:20.519
I don't know if you've read it or had her on, but.

319
00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:22.759
I'm going to write that down. Yeah, I know immediately.

320
00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:24.799
It's a wonderful book.

321
00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.400
I think it was a Politzer finalist either this year

322
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.640
or last year, you know, ritually deserved, but yeah, I mean,

323
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:38.839
I think the Argentine military was very intertwined with the

324
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:41.720
Argentine Catholic Church, and.

325
00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:44.640
That was another crazy thing to read. We were because

326
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:46.759
we were screenshining and texting each other the whole time,

327
00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:49.920
and we were like, look at this, We're like, that's crazy.

328
00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:50.640
Yeah.

329
00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:53.480
So, at least in Argentina, there was a sense among

330
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:57.759
the military that they were doing something noble by stealing

331
00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:02.000
these babies, because in their view, they were severing the

332
00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:07.839
babies from their quote unquote subversive families and bringing them

333
00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:12.200
up with the correct Argentine values. And so there's almost

334
00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:18.160
a religious undertone to it, and that was the justification.

335
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:20.640
That reminds me of I think it was Videla when

336
00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:22.519
he was testifying. I don't remem if it was him

337
00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:26.160
or another high official, but they said something like to

338
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:28.799
justify everything they did. They were like, well God was

339
00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:31.119
on my side or something like that, and I was

340
00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:31.640
just like.

341
00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:38.400
I think he said Nuka la mano yad never never

342
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:43.480
let go of my hand. Yeah, absolutely wild and Vidella

343
00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:44.519
was so mad.

344
00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:49.599
Yeah, it's a lot to process.

345
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:52.440
It's so, it's so, I mean, it's this is so

346
00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.400
dark and horrible, but like the Latin American distittorship, like

347
00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.000
it was almost every Latin American country during this time

348
00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.519
period had very similar things happening. But it's so interesting

349
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.640
to see the role of the church in each of

350
00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:09.000
these countries because like Chile it was very similar where

351
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.799
the Catholic Church was very much behind Pinochet. But then

352
00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.400
you have other places like Esador where they had this

353
00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:19.079
growth of liberation theology and then like Oscatro metto and

354
00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:22.680
what happened to him and the Catholic like nuns and

355
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.880
being targeted. So it's just it's so, I don't want

356
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:28.599
to say interesting because it feels wrong, but it's like

357
00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:33.000
it's strange to see these very same similar situations where

358
00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:35.160
right wing to tator ships get into power, but then

359
00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:38.759
how they happen differently in all these places, but a

360
00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:42.720
lot of them have all these scary similarities.

361
00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:44.839
Absolutely. Yeah, that was.

362
00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:49.160
Once again, as you said, it's not interesting because it's

363
00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:54.240
too horrible to be interesting. Yeah, a rabbit hole that

364
00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:58.400
I definitely went down when researching this book, because, for instance,

365
00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:02.680
in Brazil, the mill terry was initially supported by the

366
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:06.559
Catholic Church, but then the Catholic Church was a huge

367
00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:11.079
supporter of human rights organizations that sprouted in opposition to

368
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:14.880
the military and tried to you know, uncover the crimes

369
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.960
of the military there and why that happened in certain

370
00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:24.119
places and not not other countries. Is you know something

371
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:27.640
that's something something interesting.

372
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:36.279
Yeah, yeah, it is ripe for exploration and research.

373
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:39.519
Yes. Yes. Another thing we kept doing when we were

374
00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:42.359
reading was like, oh, Operation Condor mentioned, because we did

375
00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:47.240
like five episodes on Chile, and then like just a

376
00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.319
bunch of little things that have been coming up in

377
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:52.079
other countries. We're like, oh, this got mentioned, this got mentioned.

378
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:54.720
So that was not fun but interesting.

379
00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:58.960
When I saw you, the most recent episode was about

380
00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:02.599
the Chicago Boys, and that was interesting to me because

381
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.160
Javier Malay, who's the current President of Argentina.

382
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:07.559
We we wanted to bring this up.

383
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.240
Yeah, maybe we saved that for later.

384
00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:13.440
But you know, he has a dog named after a

385
00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:15.400
cloned dog named after Milton Friedman.

386
00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:18.640
So yeah, when Carmen got to that party, she texted

387
00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:21.200
me and she was like, guess who his favorite economist was?

388
00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:23.279
And immediately I was like, Milton Friedman.

389
00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:27.039
Yeah.

390
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:29.680
We have this bingo card where we write things like

391
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:33.160
the CIA is there, Like what else is there? A

392
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:36.839
cup happened, and like we need to add operation condor

393
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:39.039
to that bingo card, and like we could have easily

394
00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:41.279
filled out this bingo card while reading this book. It

395
00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:46.759
was insane to me. Yeah, but we did have actual questions.

396
00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:51.200
Let me go back to our document. We have noticed

397
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:55.359
within our own family history with and the Civil War

398
00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:59.720
there that there's this this urge to move on, to

399
00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:03.119
forget the past and focus on the future. How does

400
00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.160
the release of your book challenge the sentiment because it's

401
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:08.839
very much not forgetting the past right.

402
00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:12.119
And I think I can't take credit for that mission

403
00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:16.119
because I just wrote about a group of incredibly dogged

404
00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:20.160
and relentless women for whom that was the core of

405
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:24.960
their mission. So the Abells and Madras are responsible for

406
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:30.319
the main principles that they highlight as underpinning their missions

407
00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:35.839
are truth, justice, and memory. And you know, truth because

408
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:40.279
the military tried to obscure and twist the crimes that

409
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:46.559
it committed. Memory because the military disappeared tens of thousands

410
00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:51.119
of people, and only through memory can those people be honored, because,

411
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:54.759
in the case of the Grand Majority, the location of

412
00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:57.920
their remains is unknown. You know, their families don't have

413
00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:00.799
a place to mourn or grieve. They don't know how

414
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.480
they died, they don't know why, they don't know when,

415
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:09.279
and so it's really through memory that those people can,

416
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:14.119
both their families and the victims of the dictatorship can

417
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.480
strive for some sort of peace, you know.

418
00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:19.519
And then justice.

419
00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:24.240
Of course, Argentina, as you mentioned, has swung, like El Salvador,

420
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:31.039
between these dueling impulses of fighting for justice and this

421
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:33.359
idea that in order for the country to heal and

422
00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:39.000
move forward, the country has to ignore the past and pardon,

423
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:44.920
you know, the criminals that committed crimes during the dictatorship

424
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:50.000
in the name of quote unquote national reconciliation, and the

425
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:54.480
Abelus in particular, fought vehemently against this and found all

426
00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:59.240
these loopholes that allowed dictatorship era criminals to be prosecuted

427
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:03.359
even when they were all these impunity laws shielding them.

428
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.240
And they are responsible for the fact that Vidella ultimately

429
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:10.480
died in prison in twenty thirteen because they won a

430
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:16.559
case that showed that he masterminded and oversaw a campaign

431
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:20.319
of systematic baby theft. So yeah, I mean, I think

432
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.880
the Abolis and Madras are the ones who have really

433
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:28.279
you know, pioneered, made sure that truth, memory and justice

434
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:35.440
remain kind of central to Argentine culture. And even as

435
00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:39.519
there's a president in office that is currently pushing against

436
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:42.960
them and has clashed really fiercely with the Ablis and Madres,

437
00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:47.799
that those tenants stay alive and are not vanquished.

438
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:51.240
And the case with that, Hintina, it's so rare because

439
00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:55.759
like again, dictators in Latin America, a lot of them

440
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:59.279
who went to the School of Americas that doesn'ts right,

441
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:04.079
and like so few of them actually face any semblance

442
00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:06.440
of justice. And so for that to have happened with

443
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:10.000
ride La and for these amazing strong women who who

444
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:12.680
I mean, like, who wants to dedicate their life to this?

445
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:14.720
I don't think anyone is seeking to be become like

446
00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:18.079
an activist. They were forced upon. It was forced on them,

447
00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:21.920
and then after that they really had like no choice,

448
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:24.400
I feel because I know, I feel like a lot

449
00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:26.400
of people think, well, like how did they keep going?

450
00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:29.079
But like they had to. It was like and it

451
00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:30.880
just makes me, I mean, it makes me think of

452
00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:33.440
and this makes me so sad, but it makes me

453
00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:37.480
think of like today where in El Salvador there's mothers

454
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:41.079
looking for their kids in the prisons. Right now in

455
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:45.440
Mexico there's mothers looking for their children who were either

456
00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:50.359
subject to you know, the cartel violence or state violence,

457
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:53.720
one or the other. So it's like, none of these

458
00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:56.880
people ever want to do these things, like they were

459
00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:01.000
forced to do it, and they did it. I don't know,

460
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:04.079
they did it, so I'm going to cry. It was again,

461
00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:06.799
such an amazing important book, like oh my god. And

462
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:09.119
that's why. Yeah, when I first learned about as Susanna

463
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:13.000
and Las Mades and Azabuelas, I was not surprised to

464
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:16.839
see that women, mothers and grandmothers were at the forefront

465
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:19.960
of this fight for justice, because that's the case I

466
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:21.160
think often.

467
00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:26.640
I was very struck by that because it raised the

468
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:29.119
question for me of where were the men. I mean,

469
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:33.440
surely the fathers and grandfathers, where every bit is distraught

470
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:37.319
about the shattering of their families. But there were a

471
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:41.200
couple of explanations that the Wells themselves offer for why

472
00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:45.000
the Madras movement and the Weals movement were so dominated

473
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:50.200
by women. And I'll go from kind of most practical

474
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:54.799
to most emotional. But the one of the practical explanations

475
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:58.319
was that, you know, Argentina in the nineteen seventies was

476
00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:03.440
still a traditional society that was governed by traditional gender roles,

477
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:06.240
and so the men had to keep working, and many

478
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:08.960
of the women were not working. They were focused on

479
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:11.480
their families, and so they were they took up the

480
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:16.000
mantle of searching, you know, for their families, and that

481
00:28:16.039 --> 00:28:21.240
became their full time job. The second reason, which I

482
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:27.039
found fascinating was, you know, the Wellis recognized that as

483
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:32.240
middle aged and elderly women, as grandmothers, they were going

484
00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:37.079
to be overlooked and underestimated, and they really used that

485
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:40.680
to their advantage, and they leaned into that perception. So

486
00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:44.920
they would do these surreptitious meetings at cafes and they

487
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:50.400
would bring knitting needles live beside their coffee cups. Yeah,

488
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:53.720
their sneakiness and they were you know, they could do

489
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:58.279
really risky detective work and smuggle sensitive documents back into

490
00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:05.000
the country crumpled up into chocolate wrappers because nobody in

491
00:29:05.079 --> 00:29:08.480
the security checkpoint lines was going to look at them

492
00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:13.119
too closely. They were neatly dressed grandmothers, and they realized

493
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:16.240
that their husbands and sons, you know, might be more

494
00:29:16.279 --> 00:29:19.480
obvious targets for the regime, and it might be riskier

495
00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:22.200
for them to do some of those things. The last

496
00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:26.079
one is the most emotional, and there were several ab

497
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:29.440
Weellers that basically said, there's something and now I'm probably

498
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:34.279
gonna cry, Like there's something about being a mom and

499
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:37.880
there's something like they talked about how some of their

500
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:41.839
husbands when their children were taken, you know, kind of

501
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:48.000
crumbled and like couldn't cope, and some of them died.

502
00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:51.839
Their wives said basically like they had died of heartbreak,

503
00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:54.119
but they just like couldn't go on.

504
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:58.680
And for the Abelus, that pain kind of.

505
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:06.160
Formed and calcified into determination to find out what happened

506
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:10.200
to their children and to find their grandchildren. And it was,

507
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:12.880
as you said, like they had to it was a compulsion.

508
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:17.599
There was something primal that they could not fight. And

509
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:20.400
you know, I think that that was a big part

510
00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:24.039
of why it was mothers, mothers and grandmothers. You know.

511
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:31.920
I think there's just something completely fierce and special about

512
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:35.799
a maternal relationship, not that there isn't about a paternal too,

513
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.920
but in the Well's own words, it was a different

514
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:43.119
force that kind of drove them forward.

515
00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:48.559
Yes, yes, again, it reminds me of like every is it.

516
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:51.559
I forgot the days that the first of me there's

517
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:54.359
a day in like Latin America where women go out

518
00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:57.200
in march and these are almost all women, and you

519
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:59.559
can see find them. It's a singular man usually in

520
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:01.880
the crowd, which and they're always embraced by the women.

521
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:05.720
But there's a reason, I think not to discount like

522
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:07.559
men and like why are the men because again it's

523
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:09.440
I think a lot of the same reasons probably still

524
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:12.319
apply to women today in these marches too, But it's

525
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:15.519
just it's so I don't know, while to see like

526
00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:20.759
the similarities between all these like struggles that continue sadly today.

527
00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:24.240
Yeah, absolutely, I wish that this were you know, only

528
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.839
in history, but as we know, there are lots of

529
00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:30.559
common resonances in today's world.

530
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.559
Yeah, and it was very unfortunate to read about Malay

531
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:37.880
and him trying to rewrite history basically and trying to say,

532
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.400
you know, the military also suffered and we need to

533
00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:42.319
talk about the wrongdoing to the military. I was like,

534
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:43.079
excuse me.

535
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:48.200
Yeah, I mean so, since Malay has taken office in

536
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.599
the fall of twenty twenty three, he has clashed just

537
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:55.160
constantly with the Abuls and other human rights groups over

538
00:31:55.240 --> 00:32:00.119
these kind of this campaign of historical revisionism and also

539
00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:06.400
of just massive spending cuts that have affected the ab

540
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:10.680
wellis and so some of the organizations. There were some

541
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:14.400
government bodies that supported the Grandmother's work and those have

542
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:18.519
been either cut or you know, really downsized in a

543
00:32:18.519 --> 00:32:19.640
way that's very painful.

544
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:21.880
And then there's an.

545
00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:27.799
Institution that really underpins the Grandmother's mission called the Banco Nneticos.

546
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:32.160
It's a national genetics bank where since the late nineteen eighties,

547
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:35.559
the grandmothers have stored their genetic data so that even

548
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:39.799
if they passed away, their biological families might still be

549
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:44.799
connected to their grandchildren. And that is now also under

550
00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:49.839
threat in Malays Argentina. So it's it's a very tense time.

551
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.839
But you know, the ab Wellas have never backed down

552
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:54.519
from from a fight.

553
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:58.920
So what an amazing group of women. And also doctor

554
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:01.720
King I wanted to I quickly mentioned that they found

555
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:05.200
like a like such a champion for their cause, like

556
00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:08.400
that was like the perfect person to have like been

557
00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:11.680
connected to them, and just reading about her too, I

558
00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:14.079
also cried a lot of crime.

559
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:19.440
Yeah, yes, I mean she is absolutely incredible. She is

560
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.920
iconic and you know, at this point world famous for

561
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:26.079
having discovered the BRCA one gene. But she was just

562
00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:29.279
such a perfect person to work on this project. She

563
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:33.240
had a history of human rights activism, She had been

564
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:36.920
involved in anti Vietnam war protests. She had lived in

565
00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:41.960
Chile during the nineteen seventy three. I was shocked, and

566
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:46.640
so she had experienced up close the effects of dictatorship

567
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:50.359
and she knew, you know, the horrible impact that that

568
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:53.400
can have in a place. And then lastly, her daughter

569
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:56.880
was the exact same age as the grandchildren that dio

570
00:33:56.920 --> 00:33:59.880
Wellis were seeking. And so she did not waiver for

571
00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:04.240
moment when you know, when asked if she would work

572
00:34:04.279 --> 00:34:06.680
on this project for the Oballis despite having a very

573
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:11.039
very full work life and family life, as you can imagine.

574
00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:15.599
But it really was just the perfect alchemy. And together

575
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:18.880
they pioneered new forms of genetic testing.

576
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:21.320
And I say this in the in the.

577
00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:24.719
End of the book, but you know, they really are

578
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:30.239
responsible for pioneering genetic genealogy, which is the combination of

579
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:34.920
drawing traditional genealogical methods like drawing family trees and then

580
00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:39.280
genetic testing. And that's a technique that's now widely used

581
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:42.559
by law enforcement agencies. So like that was how the

582
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:48.119
Golden State killer was convicted, and that all traces back

583
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:53.599
to the Wellis and Mary Claire King. Yes, yes, yeah,

584
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:56.039
I was really honored to get to know doctor King.

585
00:34:56.119 --> 00:34:58.679
She I spent a lot of time with her for

586
00:34:58.760 --> 00:35:02.239
this project and she also is and I hope this

587
00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:05.760
came across on the page, but she has boundless energy.

588
00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:07.880
She is now I think seventy eight.

589
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:11.239
But just like we would have these marathon interviews, I

590
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:13.480
think the longest one we had was nine hours.

591
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:16.920
Wow. I read that, Oh my god.

592
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:23.360
Into a puddle, you know, exhaustion, and I swear she

593
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:26.360
was ready to, you know, keep talking for another another

594
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:30.239
twelve hours. She's truly incredible. So I feel honored to

595
00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:32.239
have gotten to learn from her.

596
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:36.719
Amazing, amazing it did come across. I love that she

597
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:39.800
like whenever a request from the I would as would

598
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:42.400
come in, Like once they had their system going, they

599
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:45.920
said everything aside and like her team was fighting to

600
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.360
who was working on it, and that's just I don't know.

601
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:51.159
That's like not only was she a chapping for them,

602
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:53.840
but you could tell that she fostered that within the

603
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.760
people that were in her own team for them to

604
00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:58.320
be like as busy as they were to just drop

605
00:35:58.360 --> 00:36:00.440
everything like no, I want to do this, I want

606
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:03.159
to do this. That's amazing, like amazing.

607
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:03.400
It wasn't.

608
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:07.360
I got to talk to several of the I never

609
00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:09.400
know the correct scientific term, but I guess they were

610
00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:12.760
doctor students who had worked with her on this project,

611
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:16.119
and a couple of them got very emotional remembering their

612
00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:17.159
work on this project.

613
00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:19.719
I'm sure they were so proud, So.

614
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.800
Yes, they it was wonderful to get to talk to

615
00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:27.719
them and reconstruct them that. I also loved seeing the

616
00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:32.360
abell Us fax as to doctor King, because the Wills

617
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:36.159
had this way of communicating that did not let people

618
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:39.519
off the hook even a little. So it's like they

619
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:44.079
would frame things as like, you know, we'll we'll expect

620
00:36:44.119 --> 00:36:48.079
to get your response, uh, you know, as soon as possible.

621
00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:54.280
And they are all these options. Anyone an option. But

622
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:58.400
they were lovely little grandmothers, so nobody could begrudge them.

623
00:36:58.599 --> 00:36:59.239
But I loved it.

624
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:01.840
They just they were not going to take no or

625
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:05.559
maybe or in a little bit as answers from anyone,

626
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:10.599
even world renowned geneticists who are helping learn about cancer.

627
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:18.480
Right, Oh my gosh, yeah, amazing. Well we're nearing the

628
00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:22.880
and here one last question we had here. Something that

629
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:25.599
really stood out was the theme of identity and the

630
00:37:25.639 --> 00:37:29.239
differences between how the Last thought of identity versus their

631
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:32.840
own critics. And one question you wrote about was to

632
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:36.440
whom does identity belong, whether it's the sole property of

633
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:40.639
an individual, or if the family and society have a

634
00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:43.119
right to truth. Can you talk about how the Able

635
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:46.960
Last handled these kinds of questions and criticisms over their work.

636
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:51.559
Yes, so that was a really thorny question and a

637
00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:58.280
very existential one. But essentially, the Abuelas always pushed for

638
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:03.840
compulsory DNA testing, and this became more relevant, especially once

639
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:08.000
the people that they were looking for became legal adults

640
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:11.159
who could make their own decisions about whether to seek

641
00:38:11.239 --> 00:38:15.320
genetic testing or not. And ultimately they made progress on

642
00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:21.000
having compulsory DNA testing passed into law, but the optics

643
00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:26.119
were sometimes quite difficult for them because the courts, if

644
00:38:26.199 --> 00:38:31.400
a person resisted coming in and giving blood, could order

645
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:36.280
these raids in which a person's personal belongings like toothbrushes

646
00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:40.760
or hair brushes, could be taken from them for testing.

647
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:44.199
And there were a couple of high profile instances of this.

648
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:47.920
In one case, two people who were the adoptive children

649
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:52.760
of a very high profile and rich and famous media mogul,

650
00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:57.960
whom Leombellas believed were actually the children of Decipotacillos, were

651
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:01.920
caught up in this high speed, very dramatic, very mediatic

652
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:07.719
raid at this media Locals mansion outside of Buenos Aires.

653
00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:09.360
And you know, there were.

654
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:13.000
A lot of people, including some allies of the Aballis,

655
00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:18.880
who argued that you can't violate someone's human rights in

656
00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:22.840
the name of human rights, and the Aballas argued back,

657
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:26.280
you know, a crime is a crime, whether it was

658
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:31.039
committed yesterday or thirty or forty years ago, and the

659
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:36.280
state is duty bound to investigate crimes and in this case,

660
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:40.280
especially a crime in which something as big as someone's

661
00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:44.840
identity has been has been stolen, and you know, these

662
00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:48.519
tensions kind of continue continue to play out, but they

663
00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:53.119
were especially heated around a couple of these particular cases

664
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:59.280
where there was resistance on the part of the suspected

665
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:03.360
the suspect grandchildren. And I went into one case that

666
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:08.239
was ended up in the same way that Gier most

667
00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:11.960
case did with the grandchild ultimately coming around to his identity.

668
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:17.199
But there was Ezekiel. Ezekiel, Oh my god, his journey.

669
00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:22.440
What an emotional ride to go through reading his journey,

670
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:27.280
him replacing the toothbrush in case there was a raid,

671
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.199
but then ultimately in the end coming around, because in

672
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:34.000
the end, I think it's a human desire to figure

673
00:40:34.039 --> 00:40:39.559
out where you're really from, who you really came from.

674
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:43.400
And in the end, I mean, yeah, that was beautiful

675
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:45.719
that he came around. And like you said in the book,

676
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:49.360
the majority did come around, even if it took decades.

677
00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:53.800
And then his grandmother eventually like not even like saying like, oh,

678
00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:55.960
I don't even like she didn't fallow him for coming

679
00:40:56.079 --> 00:40:58.400
taking so long to come around, just that he came around.

680
00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:01.079
In the end. I was crying, Yeah, tears.

681
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:06.000
He describes his grandmother, who unfortunately has passed away, but

682
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:09.760
as a being that is as close to an angel

683
00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:12.519
as you can possibly come. Like, she really did not

684
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:18.079
begrudge him. He fought for ten years. You know, they

685
00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:20.119
could have had ten years to get to.

686
00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:22.159
That.

687
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:25.320
He resisted, and she didn't, you know, she didn't resent

688
00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:28.880
him for it or hold it against him, and she

689
00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:30.480
just was grateful for this.

690
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:35.000
She is she the one who was comforting his adoptive mother. Yeah,

691
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:37.280
I was like, she had to be an angel of

692
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:41.239
a person because wow, absolutely.

693
00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:45.960
Right, and especially I mean Ezekiel came from a family

694
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:48.880
that he was taken by a family that did have

695
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:55.559
direct ties to the dictatorship and his appropriated father actually

696
00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.679
you know, went on the run for twenty years and

697
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:02.760
was trying to evade justice for twenty years. But he

698
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:05.920
was an intelligence officer in the Air Force, and so

699
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:10.679
you know, there were situations where the Abelas grandchildren were

700
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:14.320
adopted by families who didn't know the origins of the

701
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:16.239
children that they were raising, but this was not one

702
00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:20.840
of those cases. So the fact that Nelly embraced, you know,

703
00:42:20.840 --> 00:42:25.880
Ezekiel's appropriate mother like that takes on new new power

704
00:42:26.119 --> 00:42:28.920
of forgiveness and compassion.

705
00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:33.239
Yes, yes, but yeah, we don't want to take up

706
00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:35.480
too much of your time. So that was I think

707
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:38.840
the last question that we had on our file. But

708
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:43.039
is there I mean, I think our again, our readers

709
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:45.360
are just like this book was made for them. They will,

710
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:50.559
they really will. But in case there's anyone listening that, like,

711
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:52.800
for some reason needs to be convinced, I don't. I

712
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:54.760
don't know why, like for some reason needs to be

713
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:57.800
convinced to read your book, what would you tell them?

714
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:00.519
I think that.

715
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:06.119
I was so fascinated by this history, and I think

716
00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:10.159
your readers and listeners are clearly people who have a

717
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:14.239
natural interest in Latin American history, in obscure areas of

718
00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:17.840
Latin American history. But it also felt very important to

719
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:22.599
me because this is such difficult subject matter, and because

720
00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:27.360
the book really covers such a wide swath of time,

721
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:31.159
you know, I would say fifty sixty years. It was

722
00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:34.599
very important for me to write this in a narrative

723
00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:38.679
way that reads almost like a novel.

724
00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:40.760
Everything really does as you've seen.

725
00:43:40.599 --> 00:43:44.280
Because you looked at the source notes, but everything is documented,

726
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:47.719
everything is fact checked. I was really you know, privileged

727
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:50.360
to get to work with multiple fact checkers. I have

728
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:55.239
a background in fact checking if there are multiple stories

729
00:43:55.400 --> 00:43:58.039
that didn't add up, like I mentioned that in the endnotes,

730
00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:01.119
and try to be transparent about that. So this is

731
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:05.199
all you know, based on fact and research. But I

732
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:07.480
also just think I tried to write it in a

733
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:11.440
way that brings the emotion through of the story and

734
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:15.719
of this family and of this movement and of this country.

735
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:19.159
And so you know, even if you're not immediately drawn

736
00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:22.559
to this period in history or to Argentina, I would

737
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:26.880
hope that just as a reading experience, you know, you

738
00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:29.599
would still be kind of drawn through to the end.

739
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:32.000
And then the other thing I would say is I

740
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:35.079
started working on this book in twenty twenty one, and

741
00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:39.239
there were parallels that I could draw to today and

742
00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:44.639
to home, but they were not nearly as strong as

743
00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:49.159
the parallels that can be drawn today. And I do

744
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:53.599
think that this book holds very important lessons that all

745
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:58.039
of us should be paying attention to about what happens

746
00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:02.239
when a government puts it agenda before the rule of law,

747
00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:09.960
and also about how ordinary citizens can band together and

748
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:15.519
stand up in the instance that things get really extreme.

749
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:20.119
And so those would be my two arguments for why

750
00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:21.159
someone should.

751
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:21.960
Pick up this book.

752
00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:26.920
Yes, yes, yes too, all of that agree with ourthing. Yes,

753
00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:30.599
and thank you so much for I know we like scheduled.

754
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:32.440
We were like going back and forth because we're so

755
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:34.519
bad at checking our email. But I'm so glad that

756
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:37.280
this happened. This has been such a joy doing this.

757
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:39.599
It really has been wonderful for me.

758
00:45:39.880 --> 00:45:43.760
And yeah, I'm excited to continue listening to the show.

759
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:46.519
And yeah, I hope that we can all stay in touch.

760
00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:49.360
This is really great and I'm grateful for the opportunity.

761
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:53.000
Yes, thank you so much and everyone else listening. If

762
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:56.079
you haven't gotten the book, you can get a wherever

763
00:45:56.159 --> 00:46:00.199
books are sold, your library even honestly anywhere everywhere. Look

764
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:02.079
for it immediately, like right now.

765
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:05.639
Also, the audio version is so I have not listened

766
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:06.400
to the whole audio.

767
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:10.119
It's great. It's great. I actually listened. I went and

768
00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:14.199
got more credits on Libro FM, so I could also

769
00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:18.039
listen to the audiobook because I read so so.

770
00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:22.159
Yeah, it's narrated by Alejandre Renoso who's an amazing voice actress,

771
00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:22.679
and it.

772
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:26.679
Was so good. So yeah, that's we need to listen

773
00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:28.360
to it. You do need to listen to it too.

774
00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:30.840
I highly recommend it in that way if you're a

775
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:31.639
slow reader like me.

776
00:46:33.639 --> 00:46:36.679
Oh, thanks much, Carmon and Christina. I really appreciate it.

777
00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:39.480
And yeah, I hope to stay in touch with both

778
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:39.639
of you.

779
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:47.360
Yes, thank you. What a discussion that was. I feel

780
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:51.000
rejuvenated after talking with it, and I was like, we

781
00:46:51.079 --> 00:46:52.719
have to I'm like, at some point I have to

782
00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:55.880
stop talking, but I couldn't. Yeah, And there was so

783
00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:58.079
much stuff that we didn't have the time to touch

784
00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:02.280
on because there's so much in this book, Like said herself,

785
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:06.760
it compasses like what sixty year period time span, And

786
00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:12.719
there's so much I didn't know about at Hintina, even

787
00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:15.320
with the background knowledge that we have from you know,

788
00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:21.760
the podcast, Yeah, and having knowledge of Asusna, we have

789
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:28.960
Loona what happened to her of Operation Condor of the Disappeared,

790
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:33.000
but still there's so much to learn. Yeah, and even

791
00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:35.480
if you listen, like you know, he listens to that

792
00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:37.800
full interview, and yes, we talked about a lot that

793
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:41.079
happens in the book. But even then, this isn't even

794
00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:44.239
like touching that you you were missing so much, so

795
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:50.679
much just going out it's a story now yeah, Ordrey

796
00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:59.280
get it somewhere us US. But yeah, what what an

797
00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:04.880
amazing story, an amazing person everything. Yeah, I am truly

798
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:09.920
I said this about Sena, Florida when we did that episode,

799
00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:12.239
and I was like, I am, I was truly changed

800
00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:19.760
by learning about Sussenna and her story and and a

801
00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:22.079
part of this book talks about Susanna and what happened

802
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:26.280
to her. But it's like even even more because it's

803
00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:29.280
all that well, as you know, even though it focuses

804
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:34.119
on Rosa, there's still a lot that is talked about

805
00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:39.400
the others and their fighting spirit and they were they

806
00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:42.159
were just amazing, they really were, And we could go

807
00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:47.960
on and about them. We won't, right right, Yeah, yeah,

808
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:53.039
but we could. But yeah, we hope that this was first.

809
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:56.360
We hope that everyone goes and reads this book. Yeah,

810
00:48:56.440 --> 00:48:58.719
and then also we hope that this was one list

811
00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:06.639
it started. Unknown Free Bye Bye estorias Anown is produced

812
00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:09.920
by Carmen and Christina, Researched by Carmen and Christina, edited

813
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:12.639
by Christina. You can find sources for every episode at

814
00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:16.119
Astoria's unknown dot com and in our show notes. Creating

815
00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:17.440
the podcast has a lot of work, so if you

816
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:19.639
want to help us out financially, you can do so

817
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:23.519
by supporting us on Patreon at patreon dot com. Slash

818
00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:24.679
Studied as an Own Podcast